Spas are all about wellness, but lately they've been on a bad run. On Thursday, Oct. 9, two people died and 19 more had to be treated after two hours in an Indian sweat lodge at Angel Valley Retreat Center near Sedona, Arizona, according to an article in The New York Times. A third person died Oct. 17. They were attending an Oct. 1-9 retreat called "Spiritual Warrior" featuring James Arthur Ray, author of "Harmonic Wealth: The Secret of Attracting the Life You Want."
Officials have not released the cause of the deaths, but tests for carbon monoxide came up negative. Temperatures in an Indian sweat lodge can go quite high, but they are typically safe and authorities haven't yet figured out what went wrong. Yavapai County sheriff Steve Waugh said 64 people in the sweat lodge had fasted for 36 hours, eaten a breakfast buffet Thursday morning, then attended seminars. They entered the sweat lodge at 3 PM.
Joseph Bruchac, an expert on Native American traditions and author of The Native American Sweat Lodge, told the Associated Press that the number of the people in the sweat lodge could have been a problem, since "all these people are fighting for the same oxygen." Typically there are 8 to 12 people in an Indian sweat lodge.
The three who died were 38-year-old Kirby Brown of Westtown, N.Y, 40-year-old James Shore of Milwaukee and 49-year-old Liz Neuman of Minnesota. Others were treated for burns, dehydration, respiratory arrest, kidney failure or elevated body temperature. The deaths are being investigated as a homicide.
Angel Valley Retreat Center is not a lavish resort spa, but a small facility with modest cabins on 70 acres catering to the "New Age" crowd that is typically drawn to Sedona. Along with massage, reflexology and Reiki, it offers "further-out" services like dolphin energy healing, angel walks and soul retrieval.
I participated in an Indian sweat lodge at New Age Health Spa in Neversink, NY, a few years ago, and it was one of my very best spa experiences. There were about 10 of us, and the man "pouring the waters" (in charge of the sweat lodge) was sure to let us all know we could leave at any time to cool off -- and people did. I wonder if the "Spiritual Warrior" theme made people reluctant to be "wimpy" -- and they suffered from dehydration and heat stroke.
Here's the tragically ironic sales pitch about the "Spiritual Warrior" workshop, which cost nearly $10,000 per person, on James Ray's website: "You'll accelerate the releasing of your limitations and push yourself past your self-imposed and conditioned borders....You owe it to the rest of your life to get to Spiritual Warrior as quickly as you can."
These three people had no idea how brief the rest of their lives would be.
Have you ever visited a sweat lodge? Share your own sweat lodge experience and thoughts.
a gift from creator,a way to pray. no money should be involed ever. greed of the man behind the bucket?
greedy non-indian people steal grandfather’s sacred ceremonies. this man has blood on his hands and should be brought to trial. my heart goes out to the families of those people who could have been cleansed for free by a real sweat lodge ceremony. all my relations…
I know James Ray’s work and have attended several of his other conferences which were excellent. James is a tracker of personal power and seeks to understand and share with his attendees all of the global cultural practices, concepts and philosophies that enhance personal power. With all due respect to Native American commentator, the sweat lodge was just one of the many ceremonies and philosophies he has studied. I dare say James has probably studied it more intently than and understands it in even more depth than most. The sweat lodge is just one part of the conference, albeit a potentially dangerous part of the conference. One critical problem seems to have been medical judgement and the lack of emergency preparedness. For the past 7 years James has had 50 people do the same event without loss of life. There was a hired nurse who clearly was ill-equipped and inadequately prepared for the potential danger. This kind of event should’ve demanded a higher level practitioner i.e. Physician Assistant, Nurse practitioner or Physician who could’ve visually assessed the participants for those who were in distress and acted more aggressively to prevent loss of life.
There should’ve been on site:
#1-Supplemental Oxygen available (38-40 y.o. healthy people succumbed to carbon DIOXIDE excess and hypoxia -(low available O2) from the shear number of people breathing in and out in the closed space as well as heat exhaustion due to the elevated temperature. As well the altitude should’ve required O2 availability to prevent altitude sickness after the hike.
#2 IV Fluid availability. This is the treatment for dehydration from profuse sweating and heat exhaustion.
#3 There should’ve been a Portable External Defibrillator available for such a time as this. Every second is critical when a person is in full arrest.
This was a tragic event, but better medical preparedness would’ve prevented loss of life .
Perhaps the energy you put into the blame, shame, fear, intimidation and guilt you put on others by your judgmental opinions could better be serving your readers and the dead with dignity and respect. They were Mr. Ray’s students, like myself, and well loved by him. If you consider mistakes were made, it appears to me you are doing just the same.
As Dr. Hollis says, Mr. Ray’s events, including the few hours in the sweat lodge at the end of a week-long event which people obviously were willing to pay for, have been successful for many years and perhaps something misunderstood needs to be examined before judged.
The saddest part of society — mediocrity — emerges to attack excellence simply because some are unwilling to step up to what they themselves would have to do to join others of like mind at the highest levels, or even to become the best they can possibly be.
As a student of many spiritual advisors and traditions including the Native American, your spiteful “wondering” tongue can only bring the same to you and others you inspire. Is judge-jury-executioner your legacy? Perhaps a sweat lodge is exactly what those who love blame need to emerge into another aspect of beauty and a greater life. If you know anything about life from the Native American tradition or any other Spiritual tradition, you may know that the natural cycle of life is birth, death and re-birth.
Aside from the truth of the facts that we all die when we choose to go, spiritually ascending, those who cannot venture into the unknown do so because of their own fears.
Some say it this way: Explore death and get a life!
Visit http://www.abraham-hicks.com for the ultimate knowledge in what “death” is all about.
Like each of us, all of those participants have free will and any of us can be easily dehydrated from sun, overworking, heat of many sources or lack of water on a daily basis. Working in a spa on a regular basis, knowing all forms of heat require additional hydration, I am constantly amazed by how little people drink water to survive every day.
We need a gallon each day in my opinion and according to many university tests. And there are those who say we can die of too much water.
So there you have it, the law of polarity states we will always have the opposites contained within the whole.
Be good to yourself by being good to others. As Jesus said, Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. As the Hopi have said, “We are the ones we have been waiting for!”
It’s tragic what happened to the victims of this man’s greed and gluttony for taking advantage of people in search of something they could’ve discovered without plopping down nearly $10,000. There’s a reason why there are warnings posted by whirlpools, suana and steam rooms about how much time a person should remain. I’ve heard tribal leaders say that even when they have a sacred sweat lodge ceremony people don’t remain for long periods of time. This guy was a real charlatan and I hope he is sued to the point where he loses his savings. This type of retreat makes all the respectable ones suspect. I went to his website and couldn’t find anything in his bio that supported his being an authority. He’s a dabbler who knows how to say all of the right and trendy words to delude others into keeping his wallet fat. These people were in search of the me that probably didn’t exist and now some are dead, many more emotionally and physically harmed. God bless the victims of this man’s greed.
I disagree, James A Ray should be held responsible for his actions. No one should have died. This was not an error on James Ray’s part. Just look at the sweat lodge. Looks like plastic tent! What happens when the heat from the rocks mix with the plastic, is so obvious! I hope those families sue him.
Let’s pray for the victims, their families and James Ray.
This was a very tragic incident for all concerned, even for the retreat center. Many people are or will be touched by this trajedy. Hopefully there will be stringent rules and regulations to keep everyone safe and healthy. Obviously there are lessons to learn…
Sad. why dont white people ever learn? the things that were givin to us as ndn people where for the benifit of all not just a few. the people like this that utilize ndn medicine for their individual profit will always hurt other people because they dont understand what it is about. ndn people will never claim to be an expert in any custom or ceremonial activities. only white people. we have seen it many times on the rez. a white man or woman will come around for a couple of days and ask a few questions and then leave. a few months later they write a book about it and are recognized as the expert. sad.
The Native American Peoples are grieving and upset by this tragedy. The sweat lodge ceremony is for healing and cleansing, not a place of suffering. This is why the ceremony is led by the qualified medicine people with years of training.
Anyone can pour water on stones, but to work with energy and know the spiritual, physical and emotional condition of all people in a ceremony, with usually no more 15 people, it takes a very experienced person. Almost every tribe that uses a sweat lodge has such a person.
There are a lot of different aspects to Native American cultures, one of which is the cardinal directions and keepers of the rites to those directions.
The Chumash Indians are the keepers of the western gate for what is known by most as Turtle Island. One of their traditional practioners, Mahiwo, is now in the Sedona area to help with the transition of souls and heal the hearts and emotions in this great atrosophy and for the participants of catastrophe.
Many of the people in the incident have now returned home.
You can contact us at eyeofthesoul@live.com and we will pass a message onto Mahiwo.
I am a white woman who has been priviledged in participating in sweatlodge ceremonies. I am so grateful for all I learned there and continue to learn. When my friend told me about the deaths I felt so sad for all those involved. I wondered if the lodge was covered in black plastic. This material does not allow air circulation. I also wondered if fees were involved. I was taught that all are welcome in the lodge, that it is a gift and for healing. Of course you offer something in return for this gift, often much needed funds, but only after the ceremony.
I hope that James Arthur Ray has the grace to cover the expenses of the Native medicine people who are in Sedona working with the negative energies there. Thank you for this opportunity to express myself.
Aloha everybody, as there is another blog about trust going on, please take the time to read those comments as well. I think we all have alot to offer each other to learn and grow.
Here’s my latest comment on the other. Thanks Anitra…
Thank you Anitra for continuing the conversation…I had to come back and see how you were all feeling after all!
I can see one really good thing coming from all these comments and I’m guessing James Ray is already being moved to see this for himself, that at any future sweat lodge events an authentic trained water pourer as David Brown Eyes calls them can be hired, perhaps required by property owners who house them, to be present to lead the events.
I guess we don’t know that wasn’t actually done here, but the point is absolutely well taken in my mind. Thank you David.
Anitra, Perhaps an About.com page can be established whereby those who are expert in this area of Native tradition are listed, making themselves available for hire to lead sweat lodge events when others want to do them for their clientele, family or friends. That way, the proper tradition can be honored by all, and perhaps these heart-wrenching events can be put behind us for good.
There are other unrelated deaths in sweat lodge incidents news stories online, particularly in 2002, that honestly don’t surprise me now that I understand the true creative power that we have.
And I think the discussion, raising awareness, about all of it is all good. So thank you!
Please let me know if you’re willing to approach About.com about such a webpage, because if not interested in doing so, I am happy to develop a page on my website, InspireWorldPeace. David, can you tell us if such a site or listing exists already, or if there are “certified” water pourers that belong to a group, membership or association other than being known in their own tribes? That would be good to know, and what you think of the idea given your statement that you’ve been trying for years to get this some control accomplished. Is it appropriate thing to consider organizing and do? If not perhaps you could give the names and contact info on those willing on an individual basis.
On another note to everyone, what I do know of James Ray, is that he teaches accountability as one of the most essential facets of our existence. This is why I am certain he is probably suffering the most, and why such condemning reflex statements on the part of people who don’t know this are so offensive to me as one of his students, well founded in these traditions in my own beliefs. I know that in due time we will have important answers that will indeed preserve the ancient traditions that everybody commenting here, and I know he himself so deeply respects. I believe anyone studying his works easily sees as I have that it’s the foundation of himself, his life, his mission, what he teaches and lives for in serving others.
I also would like to tell Sophia that I am already on an island, and don’t argue with anyone on the basic fact that each of us is the Divine! and I love the healing arts as my own work because I too can serve others by assisting in their healing. As my heart bleeds for my ancestors in Spirit who feel torment or conquered by any outside source, I wish you the greatest blessings and love. Who knows but Spirit, that calling us together might be that we can heal more here than (originally) meets the eye.
from the other article, perhaps this will help many understand more…thank you, Christine
Aloha David Brown Eyes, Anitra, Et Al,
and to Karen, to whom I’d like to suggest she consider that our gut is our Spirit moving through us, and those of us who live by Spirit or our gut, are some of the ones speaking to you right now, some of whom you appear to oppose, here. At least, that is I.
and Aloha SunFlower, yes, I am my own guru, and a teacher too, and I teach that we have all the answers within, our own guru is the only true Way. And we are all teachers and all students all of the time. So I wrote a little bit here so you might understand better where I’m coming from, my gift to you, and everyone, especially those who make so many assumptions about one who deserves lots more dignity and respect from those who don’t know anything about him or the actual truth of the event bringing us together. He is a great leader. You too could be a great leader. Do you? Do you lead thousands? I’m sure you lead some, but thousands? We can use some more great leaders, don’t you agree?
Thank you very much David for the heart-bleeding truth of how “we” have treated each other over time. You did in fact give me what I wanted — the appropriateness of such a consideration, but getting the story, your story, with it is ultimately the keystone — the reopening of old wounds creates another opportunity for healing. And these are serious, very deep old wounds perpetuating suffering today.
I am also completely offended by those who have committed horrific genocide against you — your people — and others which also date back eons of time and unfortunately have made our lives and our planet into a considerably ugly place without proper healing. Yes it still goes on. I have and I believe all of us share in the feeling of these horrific events, at least I do and most people I know in my Maui community living a life in and of Spirit do. In fact, Hawaiians share a sense of “conquered” as many cultures have around the world.
This is why, in my knowing, Spirit nudges us to come together at such times — facing another event of sorrow, now it’s us on this blog representing the larger community — bringing us to another opportunity for healing and resolution and ultimately regaining wholeness, our integrity, which returns us to balance, harmony and potentially, happiness.
It’s the opening of old wounds however, that keeps them alive and continuous attention albeit unconsciously to that which brings suffering only perpetuates the suffering. And as you know, this is exactly what a life of being spiritual, also known as a “Spiritual Warrior” to some, is about. To transcend that which takes us away from Spirit, God, Love, and keep loving.
Of course, The healing has to, naturally, occur at the individual level, personally in each heart before it can reach the community and the World.
That’s why I recognize it’s so backwards to keep on the same cycle of verbal abuse, judgement and condemnation, it only creates more of the same. We must break the cycle of that pattern and break into forgiveness, compassion and love, individually and as a Whole.
Perhaps we need much more than a list, right? A meeting of the minds of leaders, hearts of the people, and we would probably all agree, the filtering in the money needed to propel poverty to prosperity.
But the money is just energy. It’s a concept, an idea. And the mindset of the lack of it keeps us stuck, in “poverty” thinking. And that’s why I’ve been so tremendously blessed to receive from the “success gurus” a new mindset as to what money is, because everything in our life comes from what we have in our mind. I needed this one missing piece of my Medicine Wheel to be Whole, bringing me into prosperity thinking across my Medicine Wheel.
When we understand the truth of our power in correct thinking: that everything we desire (of the father) on this Earth plane, is ours, delivered to us by our power, by the way our, “the” decision is made about it, we no longer would choose to think, feel, act, or be “conquered.” And that means for me and every individual in the world, that we can energize as much money as we want to because our limits are only in our mind.
WE choose victim or victor. We choose money or the lack of money. We choose good health by virtue of being happy or unhappy. We choose to become more intelligent, active, excited and passionate and grow or die. We choose to find the Life Force flowing through us or exit by slow or fast or whatever form of “death” we choose. We choose everything, including our own transformation, yes. It’s even confirmed by your own ancestors in the following book, further below. For the benefit of all readers, I’ll include a bit more first.
And we are the mirror, each of us to the other. So whatever we see in another is what we like or don’t like about ourselves. We are looking in the mirror when we look at others. As stated by Hyemeyohsts Storm in the introductory section called “The Circle” of his book titled “Seven Arrows.”
Storm also says here:
“There are levels upon levels of perspectives we must consider when we try to understand our individual perceptions of things or when we try to relate our own perceptions to those of our brothers and sisters. Every single one of our previous experiences in life will affect in some way the mental perspective from which we see the world around us.
Because of this, a particular object or event may appear fearful to you at the same time that it gives pleasure to me, or appears completely uninteresting to a third person. All things that we perceive stimulate our individual imaginations in different ways, which in turn causes us to create our own unique interpretations of them. Love, hate, fear, confusion, happiness, envy and all the other emotions we feel, act upon us to paint our perceptions of things in different colors.
If the thing I were to place within our circle should be an abstraction, such as an idea, a feeling or a philosophy, our perceptions of it would then be even more complicated than if the object had been a tangible thing. And further, the number of different perceptions of it would become greater and greater as more and more people were added to our circle. The perception of any object, either tangible or abstract, is ultimately made a thousand times more complicated whenever it is viewed within the circle of an entire People as a whole. The understanding of this truth is the first lesson of the Medicine Wheel, and is a vital part of Sun Dance Teaching.”
…here he talks about the Medicine Wheel, and each one of us being one, and in one, and then:
“All things are contained within the Medicine Wheel, and all things are equal within it. The Medicine Wheel is the Total Universe.
Our teachers tell us that all things within this Universe Wheel know of their Harmony with every other thing, and know how to Give-Away one to the other, except man. Of all the Universe’s creatures, it is we alone who do not begin our lives with knowledge of this great Harmony.
All the things of the Universe Wheel have spirit and life, including the rivers, rocks, earth, sky, plants and animals. But it is only man, of all the Beings on the Wheel who is a determiner. Our determining spirit can be made whole only through the learning of our harmony with all our brothers and sisters, and with all the other spirits of the Universe. To do this we must learn to seek and to perceive. We must do this to find our place within the Medicine Wheel. To determine this place we must learn to Give-Away.
The Vision Quest, or perceiving quest is the way we must begin this search. We must all follow our Vision Quest to discover ourselves, to learn how to perceive of ourselves and to find our relationship with the world around us.”
…then about the 4 directions, and until we walk them all …
After each of us has learned of our Beginning Gift, our First Place on the Medicine Wheel, we then must Grow by Seeking Understanding in each of the Four Great Ways. Only in this way can we become Full, capable of Balance and Decision in what we do.”
Then, “The Touching”:
“To Touch and Feel is to Experience. Many people live out their entire lives without ever really Touching or being Touched by anything. These people live within a world of mind and imagination that may move them sometimes to joy, tears, happiness or sorrow. But these people never really Touch. They do not live and become one with life.
The Sun Dancer believes that each person is a unique Living Medicine Wheel, powerful beyond imagination, that has been limited and placed upon this Earth to Touch, Experience and Learn. The Six Grandfathers Taught me that each man, woman and child at one time was a Living Power that existed somewhere in time and space. These Powers were without form, but they were aware. They were alive.
Each Power possessed boundless energy and beauty. These living Medicine Wheels were capable of nearly anything. They were beautiful and perfect in all ways except one. They had no understanding of limitation, no experience of substance. These Beings were total energy of the Mind, without Body or Heart. They were placed upon this earth that they might learn the things of the Heart through Touching.
According to the Teachers, thee is only one thing that all people possess equally. This is their loneliness. No two people on the face of this earth are alike in any one thing except for their loneliness. This is the cause of our Growing, but also the cause of our wars. Love, hate, greed and generosity are all rooted within our loneliness, within our desire to be needed and loved.
The only way that we can overcome our loneliness is through Touching. It is only in this way that we can learn to be Total Beings. God is a presence of this Total. Heamavihio, the Breath of Wisdom, and Miaheyyun, Total Understanding, are but two of the words in the Cheyenne language that express this Wholeness.”
and further…
“The Sun Dance Way itself is a Living Thing. It is always Growing and Turning within the People. It is not to be learned by studying archaic rituals or traditions, but by Seeking Understanding and then allowing it to Grow within your own Heart and Mind.”
and ending with:
“You too are a Medicine Wheel, and the magic of your Perceiving will be unfolded.”
It always is.
Whether you choose to accept it or not, James Ray is a great modern-day global leader of the “Sun Dancer Way” only it’s called different names in different languages, and in different traditions across the globe. I’m grateful for all our great leaders feeding me my Growing so that I can be Living and sharing my Understanding with Others Seeking.
Perhaps one day you’ll be grateful for it too.
There was an unfortunate accident, we are all wounded. Only In Harmony will we Heal Together. Now we know Only the color of our Heart matters. Let’s do it and be done with it, and be Whole Again.
Mahalo,
Christine
I haven’t done this in a while. For what it’s worth, heres my two cents.
That is a pretty lengthy sermon on everything except Raes defilement of the traditional use of sweat ceremony. I’m actually a white man, but I think I have an ndn heart. The wheel is good medicine. I too read Storms book over 25 years ago. If I’m not mistanken, there is a contraversal story in there that even ndns forbid, it’s about a snow stranded mother and her son. Anyway, many moons ago, various events cornered me to relate to the ndn mind. I take this pretty serious.
Back to Ray, why has no one acknowledged that under no circumstances should a fee be charged for a sweat ceremony? Ask any traditional if you have an objection to that. And who has heard of that many people in a sweat? The sweats that I have gone to have a seperate sweat for men and women. That’s one of the things wrong with new agers. Like George said, they read a couple of books, get an ndn tatoo, maybe talk to someone they would call an elder, and presto….they are now a bonifide ndn/expert. George nails it exactly. The want-a-bees stand out like porcipines. Anyone familiar with native ways knows Ray is out of bounds. I guess it is true though, birds of a feather flock and fly together. If someone wants to buy their way into heven, someone will sell them a ticket.
Anyway, to me the wheel is a good learning tool. I have used it along side of a christian type attitude. It works for me. As far as gurus, no one is a. We are all merely students striving to reach our potential on this earth walk, whether that would be a warrior or a comforter, or whatever our destiny allows. If someone is high up the mountain, some people would call them a guru; but knowone knows everything. Because of our individual experences, we are both teachers and students; and thru those experences life supplied many mirrors to help us along the way. It is unfortuante that the ones who passed on in Rays sweat can not use the lessons learned from this event toward the life that was cut short. I hope the ones who survived are humbled and learn the lesson that just because we may want something, doesn’t mean it is there for our taking. Somethings are not meant to be, for some people. It isn’t because, all of a sudden we wish to know something and presto, our inner self reveals it to us or our desire opens the path. Nope, it cwill be a life long journey. You have to ask inorder to receive, you have to knock before the door is opened to you. However, some people are predestined to a course that the Creator has appointed them to without their asking; heros are examples, Crazy Horse for one. Either way, your wishes and desires will not come over night. Circumstances determines who we are. To be truely at peace within, under any circumstance…. that is what gives us the claim as victor. Spirituality isn’t a uptopian deminition, to me that is new age thinking. Our spiritualality is either strengthen or weaken thru our daily experences. We are who we are. If you are not ndn, or by chance circumstances has placed you there without your own concent, don’t try to be one. Be happy who you are and be the best you can be. I believe that is Creators desire.
As for money, to me it isn’t energy; it’s the worlds form of bondage. It determines who serves and commands. History proves that from the very beginning of time…..even within many of the ancient cultures was that true. Together with religion, man has surely been enslaved. But then, if a man has been traditionaly brainwashed into accepting slavery as the norm, I guess slavery isn’t labeled slavery.
Back to Ray, one should never go into a sweat without knowing something about the one conducting it. I know there are his followers who say they know him, but then again, those who passed on probably made the same claim. There has been a rising problem over the last few years with some sweat leaders using drugs inside the sweat to promote halucinations. I guess some of them want their clients to get their moneys worth, others do it for the sake of rebellion.
I’ll pass the stick on now.
Im Northern Cheyenne I belong to the Northern Cheyenne Tribe. I would like to respond on the behalf of the Native peoples who conduct a sweat lodge ceremony correctly. To inform the people who think Iam a joke I say Christianity is a joke and this is your only way to have some sort of culture. I pity all of you who deny your ouwn heritage. These people died because the person conducting this ancient ceremony used it to gain profit, he doesn’t know what it means to be connected to a dying way of life. They died because he disrespected the ceremony by commercializing a fabrication of a plastic medicine man by selling my chruch to non-believers. My the one who passed rest in peace and may this man die in infamy for this disrespect on behalf of the True Natives who pray and use the sweat as a place of prayer and reflection.
I have attended many well-conducted sweat lodges by highly trained and dedicated Native Americans. They were transcendent experiences. My heart goes out to those that died, their families, and their loved ones.
Greed is an ugly thing.
Martin, I agree with your thoughts pretty much, it is a dying way of life, but doesn’t that make it that much more sacred. The reason being, the people will not let it die out. So, why do you say people think you are a joke? The want-a-bees wish they were you because they don’t know they have a culture of their own. Through ignorance, they believe you have what they are looking for, but they are romanticising. The problem is they don’t know their past. This is what they should be searching for. They may know of their German, Irish, Euro ancestery…..but that doesn’t go back far. That is why so many of them are pouring into native interests. But then again, if they knew their own culture, then maybe they would have a reason to wish to deny it, but most are ignorant of this part of life. If there is a darkness in the past, the upside is to become aware of it and learn from it. They say knowledge is strength to better yourself. Most all cultures have an embarrassment in their past, many indignious cultures, as well as caucasions practiced human sacrifies at one time for instance. I hate to say it, but most modern day natives are about as ignorant of their far past as well. Culture goes back much further than 200-300 years. Who were the Cheyenne before they settled in the Yellowstone area? Who were the Sioux before they settled on the plains. Who were the Cherokee before they settled in the Southeast? I hope you get the picture….it is a very big picture. Please don’t get the idea that I think I know something, for I am quite ignorant. The more one learns, the more this becomes more apparent to them. It is iceberg effect.
As for Christianity, the NAs of the 1800s were introduced to the same aggressive, persecuting christianity that forced freedom loving Europeans to escape from those foreign soils to America. To me, most of christianity is a mirage, this is my opinion. Nowdays, I know Christianity is a manmade religion. The symbol of the cross hangs around the neck of just about ever thug and prostitute you see. The institutional church took the truth and twisted it soas to maintain control over masses of peoples lives, countries is a better word. I understand the reason why a lot of NAs hate christianity, they were dealt the same false religion as the Euros were, and I would probably feel the same way had I grown up on the rez with the bloody past of the white/church. The fact is, Yashua is the truth. The religion of Christianity centers around a Jewish man whom most of the world knows by the Greek name of Jesus, which doesn’t even translate back to Hebrew with the same meaning. (Of course Yashua wasn’t just an ordinary man). Yashua (Jesus) is like many of the stone people, but He was on a different mission, His mission is to correct the wrong in the entire universe. If Yashua had been a Cheyenne, (btw, he was a tribal member of Judah, one of 12 Israelite nomadic tribes) he would have been persecuted as well….but then again, you know His story. It’s the bs laws and ordiances that church institutions have placed on the people of their denominations. Yashua plainly said that he came to free people from guilt, the same guilt that churches have placed back on people again.
Please, I sincerely beg everyone, please don’t feel that I am infringing upon you, that isn’t my intention, I just humbly try to share some of what has been shared with me. I personally love the sweat, although I do wrestle with some of the paganism. I really don’t practice much native American ceremony anymore, I respect their rights to worship as they have been lead. Life is a learning, and this is part of what I have learned. Like I said, learn to love who you are, not what you wished you were.
I would also have to say that the truth belongs to no one party, it belongs to anyone who seeks it. The scriptures plainly says, study to show yourself worthy, and that doesn’t mean only through the Bible. If a non-native person wishes to worship with their native brothers and sisters in a sweat, then don’t deprive them of it if they are on the up and up. The sweat doesn’t belong to only one group. To put this into perspective, I once heard a Sioux man complain about a group of Cherokees who were conducting a sweat on their property; he said that the sweat belongs to the Sioux. These Cherokees were half Sioux as well. This is true for the most part of native Americans. For someone to make such a statement seem rather pious to me. Ohh, what glass houses we all live in. It is a known fact among many natives that there are still many bitter rivalries among tribes even to this day. A Crow knows exactly what I am talking about.
BTW, my woman is of Cheyenne blood who was raised in the Christian way and she is a firm believer. We continually educate each other, she is a traditional Christian and I am a non-traditional Christian, we are both learning the truth together.
i am native american and these sweat lodges were not meant for so many people at once. They should have not been in the sweat for so long if they are not used to those such things, especially white people who do not know how to fast for so long! greedy white people care about money and nothing else. Sweat lodges are for sacred events not for white people to toy around with!!!
some of these new age people and their comments show what thefs problem is. They go on and on and follow a man or idea when they don’t even know what they are talking about. They are honoring the wasichu tradition of standing outside our culture and analyzing it because they wannabe part of it or think they know what it is, but they are arrogant. first, there is no proof that natives made human sacrifices; that is another myth started by the conquistadors, like christianity.
Second, this arrogant man cannot be allowed to misuse our ceremonies again. This is something we have been bothered by for a long time, as Chief Arvol Looking Horse says in Indian COuntry Today. I am from that southern utah-arizona area and I know personally what goes on.
There is a sweat run on one of the rez’s nearby and when we heard that they were charging in some way, we refused to go. They started having all these tourists there filling up the lodge, and when they “pray,” you got the feeling it was more about talking to us heathen natives about Jesus than talking to the Creator. They are programmed into their new age or pseudo-christian or mormom ways and then they think they are going to do the lodge like it is another stop off to Dinosaurland on their wannabe spiritual quest for what their culture lacks. They are not coming to the sweat because it is their dedicated way of lfe, they are coming for other agendas or thinking they are going to add a little touch of native american like spice to their little casserole they are cooking up, inventing their own version of everything they come across. And in the case of this Ray idiot, you can see it is not a healthy religion.
I chose to do the sweat because I come from Tuscarora/Tsa-la-gi blood and it is a deeply committed way of life. I thought long about the lodge before I did it and prayed and did not go until I felt I understood enough to be ready. I was taught what to do first and whn I was ready I went. The way these people come in like people off the bus to Disneyland bothers every native person I know. After days of sweats with one of the AIM founders I won’t name out of respect, where people were brought into the sweats not even knowing what it was about or prepared, I felt so bad I told my Mom I did not want to go to any of them anymore like this. I would only go with people I knew who were native or really part of our culture and life, not just there like hippies or “adding” the sweat into their hodgepodge of spirituality and praying to their christian make believe god as they reconcile how to fit him into our ways, thinking maybe jesus was Quetzocaotl or whoever. It is just so obviously not real and saccharine-ish.
When I pray in the lodge or by myself, it doesn;t feel right if I am doing this in front of people in some contrived intimacy like these lodges have. That is why Vine DeLoria, Jr. said the ceremonies now are a shadow of what they were, a walk-through, with no effect on the participants. If they are not done in the right way, that is the fact. You can make believe you are on a vision quest and talk your way all aorund it and try to force yourself into something by fasting aand sitting in there for hours, but this is not the real way.
If we said, hey, I lived with the mormons and jews and learned their sacred temple ceremonies and set up little mock temples and charged people and said we were “experts” trained by them, they would raise hell about it and have it shut down. So what are they lacking that they don’t respect out ancestors’ graves and our ways are no less than theirs, they are not here for you ‘all.” You think our land and what we have belongs to you all. No, the Creator gives each person and tribe their own for their benefit, what is good for the Navajo is not the same for the Hopi. You cannot just anal-retentive your way around this. You can’t “hire” “certified” water=pourers and license and buy spirituality. It is not meant for you if you even think that way. You can’t take part of our ways and twist it into a product for you to consume, the way you have done for so long, and make it right.
Before you run a sweat, natives know you do it ;in a ;lkjhumble way because you are given the privilege, you are responsible for all the people. You people who worship this fool like he was Jim Jones need to learn humility like he never had. At a real lodge it would not have happened, and the leader would not have walked away when people died, like that guy. A real medicine man would not even do medicine anymore, he would be humbled. But this cult of people are out there saying these people chose to die? Like they chose to drink the kool-aid. They were naive in searching for something and putting themselves in the care of a false shaman, which should be a warning to all the rest of you. But we have all been naive at times and that one mistake put them in a place where someone else took advantage of them. I think to say they chose to die is creepy and sounds like some people out there will keep playing with the sacred fire til it burns them and they learn. their lives were sacred and he played with them for money. That is not our way. I hope one thing that happens is they stop exploiting the native wisdom and start respecting it.
WestWind,
I humbly approach with no offence toward anyone. I apologize if I come across arrogant, sometimes the written word can come across abruptly instead of the soft voice. Strong medicine can be bitter at first.
I respect and agree with some of what you say. You sound like a young lady in her 20s or 30s with a firey warrior spirit. I can relate to the inner fire, I am a warrior myself. Personally, I don’t participate anymore in ndn ceremonies. I did enjoy attending when I did, and it wasn’t for the reason of hodgepodging spiritualality. If a person is not journeying and seeking to be closer to their Creator, and to learn the answers to the haunting questions of their minds, then they are a slave to their own traditions, ndn or white. This means we are not using our god-given liberty to follow our heart and mind. The early ndn gladly excepted any new thought process (such as Jesus) before the greedy came over from Europe and ruined everything. Tradition will keep you in bondage to itself, I don’t care if you are a Buddhist. You will defend to the bitter end wearing a blindfold. That’s why we should never judge another religion unless we know the absolute truth about it, and that knowledge doesn’t come over night. Knowledge is wisdom.
Anyway, I once attended the sweats for the real reasons, and I really miss the days. But I have sinse grown to a higher knowledge of myself and decided that the paganism displayed in the ceremonies was against my calling, who I really am. I am not condemning the ndn way. it is their tradition.
On the flip side, whether they admit it or not, angry ndns do have something in common with other non-christian religions such as Muslims, atheists, New Agers, ect, and that is the bashing of Christians when the word is just spoken. They May have a reason , or not have personally been a victim of false Christianity at all. Sometimes it is heasey. True Christians are still being persecuted around the world today, it is in the news. We all know the bloody history that the Catholics had on the NAs, and also, the white Europeans as well. Over in Europe, many true believers of the real Christ was burnt at the stake for believing. So please, be a better person and learn to not condemn others by saying they worship a make believe Christian god. The real truth is in learning to take the high road and overcome the hipacrits. Yashua is definitely not an allusion.
I respect the thoughts of angry ndns. My better half says they have problems like everyone else, much of it is as racial as racial can be. There is a very important Sioux saying that must be said upon exiting the purification sweat lodge, “Mitakue Oyasin”. To be anti-white is to mock the meaning of Mitakue Oyasin. I will not explain it to the wan-a-bes, ndns know what it means. You can cruz through the sweat ritual with hatered in your heart and say the words, but you are as much a hipacrit as the church gossiper. You can’t be both in spirit. Jesus said you can’t serve 2 gods. This is the power of growing and learning. Real Christ teachings is forgivness of others in your own heart. That is the only way to true inner peace.
I actually feel the same disgust as the angries with the wana-a-bes. I too get on a high horse when I see hipocrit so-called-Christians. But be careful to learn not to judge others, it is a mirror. Some people may not be who you think they are.
I have no disrespect for the angries, in fact I love them all, including WestWind. We are all on different planes spiritually.
I don’t know everything about all ndn tribes, there are just too many of them. I also don’t know any ndns who know everything either.
About the human sacrificing subject, I guess if you consider the natives of Central and South America seperate of their brothers from the North American continent, then you may have a point, I will have to dig a little deeper if I must. In North America, there are so many tribes from the past and present, that even ndns can not be aware of. Some tribal Sundances were as close to fatal self-sacrificing as you come, a bloody scene indeed. You mentioned Quezacoatl, so I have to assume you do respect the Central Americans as ndn brothers and sisters. It is no mystery of their human sacrificing, neither was it a made up story of the Spainards.
There is an arrogance among some natives who believes the sweat belongs to their tribe only. If you are not one of them, you are an outsider as well, theoretically. The Sioux definitely has there version, but not all ndns have a sweat for purification ceremony.
I noticed you say you are of the Tuscarora/Tsa-la-gi, are there any relation with the Cherokee, it sounds similar? I don’t think the Cherokee even has a sweat, they jump in the creek!!! Speaking of the Cherokee and some of the SouthEastern tribes, you would be surprised to see what similarities they have with the Hebrews of this so called made up god. Many of the Eastern tribes have ties with Asia, especially Pakistan and India. A lot of paganism stemmed from this area. That is probably where the word ‘Indian’ come from, India-n. If someone wants to learn about hodgepodging of spiritualality, I suggest one to learn of the ancient roots in the BC period of time.
As far as Jesus being Quetzacoatl or KuKuKan, who knows for sure? They all promised to return.
Another eye opener for any native who thinks that all natives in history were/are pure in heart, there was an aggressive warring group of ndns on the east coast who were canabals, I forgot their name.
I don’t think I can agree with the theory of land, ownership among ndns. History teaches us plainly why the tribes aer where they are. Either they were the weaker tribe or the stronger, that has been sinse the beginning. You can argue the Hebrews claimed to have land given to them by the Creator according to the Bible, but they have a written history which proves that is what happened as well as their chastizments for disobeying Him.
The main thing is to learn to live at peace with each other, even if some will not allow peace to you.
First of all I have to admit, reading all this needs a lot of chewing before digesting (disgusting)it. Anyway, before reacting further on this issue I have to make some “things clear in general” while looking at the Sedona incident fromout a non native American perspective first. For these happenings cross the line, not only regarding the respect for the indigous people living at that place, but above all with our common sense also ….Not that long ago I red an article about “The secrets of the business hero”. There are some significant points in that article which I like to share with you, although I leave it up to the reader c.q. listener to notice if there are common points which possibly fits the shoe with Ray’s Emporium…… Just observe & compare.
People who have make it, always try to “push” others to-be-like them or at least make an attempt to do even so. Ordinary people who become wealthy, famous and rich ..Fulfilling the ultimate American dream…Who doesn’t wonna have a part of it ….?
We ALL love people who shows us ways to become successful. This despite our awareness of the inequality of society in which we live. These men will always attract their own audience. Afterall, once upon a time ” the man” was also one of us, that kid on our block and who doesn’t like to become famous and/or rich in no time? However this phenomena that people look upon -the man of the street who became a successful self-made entrepreneur- as a hero, is not typical American. Worldwide people consider these “yuppie’s” as ” their idol”. This all has much to do with bringing the culture and the economic influence of the western hemisphere into the rest of the world. In the early day’s people could build up a reputation and fame via politics and government, but nowadays the businessworld is (still) in charge. Money rules the world and the amount determines who is leading or not.
Beside money, people who have made it to climb up on top of the hill, often make a clever use of their charisma as well. The term “charisma” origins out of Greece and it means gifted by the grace of God. Some of these people believed hat God Himself has gifted them with this talent. Against all odds, they have managed to make a lot of profit and money. They become the kind of people who look upon themselves as the ones who know how to handle the key to success. Thanks to this successtory they manage to gather their own admirers around them. By giving the idol standing ovations and putting him on a pedestal, some of the hardcore fans hope the statue will lift up their own status as well. Indeed, for his fans the idol become the centre of the world. This is were the number one have come to a point of no return and were the story is gonna live an own life or succesformula.
Because of their position in the own chain of command of their organisational chard, these people have no ears to listen to any advice given to them. In time this becomes even a more serious problem, for they have no patience to follow up well meant counsels or comment, in case they would allow it at all….By acting this way, these “wise guys” surrounds theirself with only those who hold their tongues and bows and kneels…..Often while constructing their own safe ha(e)ven they loose REALITY out of sight. This is what make them so vulnerable at last. They have started to run their business with simple hard work and good “housekeeping. And as a result of their huge success they always did their job with much self confidence. According some psychologists the phenomena that business heroes often will stumble and fall down some sooner or later is easy to explain. This behaviour is due to fact that these business heroes suffer a kind of “split-level” trauma. They are good in marketing and promoting their self, but analyzing and implementing idea’s according law & order turns out a huge problem for them. For these jobs they hire a staff of advisors. However at the same time, their main fault is that these “big guys” harm theirself while not lending an ear to constructive critical notes….
Often they make big mistakes because they didn’t have any academic education or knowledge which would support them to overview planning and organisation of events. Most of the time, their own experience in the total field of business is limited, but right that is what become a denial for some of them. This seriously increases the chances that they decide to do things which ain’t clever. The heritage of their simple origin as a- man- of- the- street which was their blessing first, become their burden now. This paradox mixed them up with controversial feelings which can be entitled the best as “a heritage of an ego-problem”. Despite all their achievements, they fear to be seen as the ‘kid on the block’. More than often they do their best to buy themselves in, sponsoring or owning for example soccer or basketball teams to compensate this. But at a certain point they have outrun their own success before even realizing it. Aside from that, their so called network would let them fall down too, the moment something will go wrong. Afterall in high society, these self-made men still, in one or the other way, considered as outsiders who are of the records as fast as they were enlisted. If it comes that far, reality pass by. Suddenly they fall out of their roll and play the underdog and the victim. We all have to observe a fallen hero who did not wonna do anything wrong or false. However, as a result of their endless self-confidence and believe in self-esteem they know how to sell themselves again, all the time.. Their response should be clear to us…It was all a mistake and far more we all knew at forehand it was all in the game as well….
Disabusing power and confidence happens on a worldwide scale, not only in Sedona. Therefore those who lead the charges and judge in court should never ever forget that human’s lives are at stake here.
As said before, it’s up to the reader to compare in how far the description of the “fallen hero” fits with the leading figure of the Sedona incident. Although this topic is in no way meant as a case study, I would like to advice those who like to convince themselves, to observe some promotional talking of Ray and his behaviour to decide to go on with his course. This despite the deadly tragedy in Sedona.
And ye between the lines, this was not Ray’s first incident but I hope this will be his last one.
Finally I can’t help to add a native American note to this issue. In NA belief all things happens for a reason. Obviously the things that happened in Sedona should open our eyes not to become victims of our own greed and desire equal under which trademark the snake oil will be sold. Yes, valuable lesson should be learned from this incident. And one of these lesson is to realise that “Showing off is the foolest idea of glory, for true refinement seeks simplicity!”.
However, I doubt if wachisu’s are eager to apply this advice. Anyway, time will learn and heal all the wounds.
Just me, a voice in the Wind
-SwingingFeather-
To relax the mind is to see with spirit and all that comes to do no harm will be embraced, while that which desires to harm is destroyed in order to preserve…
We can never stop people from some spiritual or non spiritual ceremonies and spas. Medical Control ,Safety standards and rules must be developed and provided while spa or ceremonies are licensed or permired .
Dr. Elena ,20 years experiens in Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation.
What has happened to this world that does not allow everyone to experinece everything, nothing belongs to anyone – traditions are passed from generation to generation, people grow mix and live together and pass on knowledge.Of course we should learn, know, train if need be to undertsand these ancient ways but we are all connected we can all learn. This is what makes us humans great, such blame, such, condemnation, surely there has been enough of that from men the world over. we want to learn these ancient ways and let others learn and experinece them, they do not belong to anyone.Comments of ownership are as greedy and controlling as anything that you condemn James Ray for. Its a tragic world that does not look to the self for the shadows within. i pray for the people who died but belive that ancient knowedge belongs to all, not just a few.
What! $10,000.00 for a sweat lodge?? Come to the heart of Blackfoot Country and you can participate in a sweat lodge for free. No fasting here, just honest intent in cleansing and renewal. Traditional lodges usually hold 5-9 people in one sitting. 64 folks, all I can think of is the 64k that the ‘Shame man, I mean Shaman made off with … my heart goes out to those who lost their lives. As I am taught by my Elders, let this be a lesson.
Poniektorzy mniemaja, iz istnienie nastolatkiem jest takie proste. Notorycznie wyliczyc bez liku milych idei, ale ceduje sie zapominac psycholog. slepi, zgadzam sie, ze nasze zycie jest latwiejsze anizeli doroslych, niemniej jednak w dalszym ciagu nie jest faktycznie proste, jak wielu problematyce.
potrzebowalbym napomknac nieco milych elementow bedac wyrostkiem. Rodzicielki matce do posadzie psycholog bo egzystujemy sposrod rodzicami, ktorzy placa wewnatrz klanem, dla naszej nauce a wielu nieobcych kwestii. Daja nam kieszonkowe a mozemy z zanim dokonac co pozadamy. Nowym argumentem istnieje to, ze nastolatki sa w nietrafnym zdrowiu i psychologia kompletne inwencji. Wieksza czesc nastolatkow trzyma jasne mozgi oraz wykladac sie blyskawicznie. Mimo to najlepsze istnieje owo, ze jestesmy mlodziez, wolne, miec wielu przyjaciol zas istotnie duzo dyspozycja. Z wtorej okolica, zyja jakiemus wady, rowniez. Wystajemy w licu stresu, lub w szkole lub w rodu, co przypadkiem ciagnac sie az do melancholii. Cierpimy sile podczas gdy everyman pozada znajdowac sie maksymalny. Zamiejscowa rzecza jest to, ze poniektorzy dorosli psychiczne powazaja nas, kiedy my jestesmy 18 lat, natomiast odnosic sie gdy dziatwa.
W najwiekszym stopniu okrutnego zwierzeta trwaja w Afryce oraz Ameryce. W Afryce sa slonie, slonie oraz lwy, jakkolwiek wkrotce moze wyginac za ¬ sprawiac, ze rece do pracy zabijaja szama dla swoich klow, jakiego sa wielce milego. Owo taz z nosorozca – jego rog istnieje wartosciowego, too. W Afryce warstewce owczesny rowniez co niemiara modeli kolorowych papug. Aktualnie jest ich coraz mniej sposrod nich. Natury w rejonie Amazonii jest w niebezpieczenstwie, gdyz kadry wycinanie lasow, prominentne jak “plucami swiata”. To nie nic bardziej blednego eksploatuje siedliska zwierzat, jednakze i psycholog determinuje na atmosfera na ziemio. Palenie spore punkty lasow moze sprawic niezamiennego Porazki a dziko zywych, kiedy rozporzadzalo owo polozenie w zarach w Malezji w 1997 roku. W owa strone jest mniej miejsca dla nieagresywnych zwierzat na Glebie, skoro zasoby ludzkie wykoszone zagajniki, konstruowac miasta, iw ow procedura skontaminowac transformacyj media prawdziwego. Parki nacjonalistycznego sa budowane w celu strazy niepierwotnych zwierzat. Internacjonalne przepisy zostaly przedlozone, aby uwiecznic zwierzeta od ludzi ¬ polujacych oraz ich usmiercic. Niektore sposrod tych zwierzat postraszonych wyginieciem sa otrzymywane do parkow zoologicznych w niecudzych kantach, ktore maja stanowic hodowane a potem sa one zezwolic bezcelowo w ich normalnym otoczeniu od nowa. Niemniej jednak ail owo nie dosyc tego: Raz za razem wiecej typow zwierzat sa zagrozone wyginieciem. Niewlasnym obowiazkiem jest chronic szama oraz sprawic wszystko, tak aby dac mozliwosc psychiatra przetrwanie.
Cyklicznie sadze o mojej przyszlosci. Nurtuj jestem podczas gdy to bedzie miec wyglad.
Obecnie przechodze az do budy natomiast jestem w czwartej formie. Totez istnieje zdecydowanego, iz pragnalbym przejsc test nastepcze – potwierdzenia oswiatowego. Pracuje rowniez. Moja utwor ma sens i przyjemne, jednakowoz na nieszczescie owo nie istnieje pyszne platnej ksiazki. Rodzicielek nadzieje, ze zapracuje troche wiecej, gdybym scedowalby egzaminu. Racz nie sadzic, iz jest owo no grunt gwoli mnie. Obecnie najwyzsze jest moje wychowanie. Jezeli absolwent budzie nadam na ankieta wstepny do budy miernej. Lecz nie jestem jeszcze jakis, co bede badac. Myslalam o marketingu tudziez nadzorowania – owo jest byt, co mnie intryguje a byloby potrzebne w mojej monografii. Reflektowalbym powiadac po angielsku totalnie. W mojej ksiazce niezwykle wazne istnieje, aby posiadac posiadloscia znajomosc biezacego jezyka. Procz tym zawsze bylo moim imaginowaniem psycholog.
Nie wiem, gdzie bede przebywac w przyszlosci. Pragnalbym byc wyposazonym mieszkanie w Warszawie na polska rasie. Teraz istnieje owo owszem marzenie, pomimo tego prawdopodobnie drzewiej. Mam takze jakiemus systemy dotyczace mojej dynastii. A przewidywac, iz niejaki dwadziescia cztery godziny bede wywiac przyrzeczenie tudziez miec dziatwa. Sa owo tymczasem poŸniejsze plany. Chwilowo staram sie skupic na mojej formacji natomiast kariery nieprofesjonalnej. Nie zapomnielismy plus o posiadloscia ucieche. W moim zyciu slawe bez zabawy nie istnieje pomyslny.
Myslalam o wedrowki. Czesto imaginowalby na ekskursje okolo ziemio. Bylem nuze w wielu polozeniach. Na exemplum bylem we Francji zas Anglii. Pozadalbym odwiedzac Azje, Ameryke Poludniowa tudziez Australie. Nie bylem w owa strone coraz.
Nasze populacja jest umieszczony na dokonanie sukcesow. Od czasu dzieciectwa istniejemy wyszkoleni, ze grunt jest, azeby efekcie przewazajaca wolumen mlodych gosciom staja sie zestresowane. BojaŸn przypadkiem przemykac do obszernych psychicznego poczatku unsex smierci.
Prezne rozwiazanie niebiezacego szkopulu jest leczenie ze zwierzetami. Procedura Badacz dowiodlby, iz czucie ze zwierzeciem asystuje znizyc napiecie. Teoria niebiezaca weryfikuje zjawisko, ze rece do pracy, jacy opedzaja duzo wieku ze zwierzetami domyslac sie sie szczesliwsi oraz bez liku pewnosci se.
Dodatkowa psychologow projekt istnieje znaleŸc nadajacy sie badania relaksu. Po tygodniu doskonalym stresu istnieje nalezyty inicjatywa, zeby przebyc sposrod porzadnym ziomkiem do kina ewentualnie figurze.
Uwazam, iz w przyszlosci bede dysponowac fabrykacje skrepowana z pecetami. Sadze, iz istnieje to nadzwyczaj atrakcyjna dzielo, zas ego juz rozmawialem z kilkoma goscmi, ktorzy pracuja jako fachmani komputerowych. Chce wykonywac prace w spolce telekomunikacyjnej wiekszosci. Dumam, iz informatyka obnaza bardzo migiem konaru oswiacie. Pragne dysponowac krocie modyfikacyj w mojej fabrykacji skonczony chronos. Dumam, ze owo bardzo ambitne zadanie. Nigdy nie chcialbym wykonywac prace w charakterze pracownik fizyczny – Sadze, ze tamta utwor istnieje raz za razem przynosi placki rekonwalescencyjnego. Doskonala dzielo winnas podarowac mi wrazenie poczta i satysfakcji.,
Matki psychologa nadzieje, ze bedzie pomyslny czlowiek z wieloma opcjami, z odpowiednio platnej profesji w wypelnianiu postawie. Idealna utwor uzna mi pracy, ethusiasm a kategorycznosci, aby przyczynic sie do sukcesow spolce.