"Spa" Sweat Lodge Deaths: Be Careful Who You Trust
Like many, I'm disturbed by the deaths at the sweat lodge near Sedona. For me, the most important lesson is that we have to be very careful who we trust with our minds and bodies. James Arthur Ray, author of "Harmonic Wealth: The Secret of Attracting the Life You Want," charged 64 people nearly $10,000 to have what they thought would be a life-transforming experience. And to deliver, he used traditional spiritual practices like fasting and sweat lodges in a way that resulted in death and injury.
I think that when you want to make changes, you should be careful who you open yourself up to....and don't expect an overnight miracle.
It's easy to be seduced by the desire for a quick fix. We want to be a different person, capable of more and better things, magnificent things that we've never done before....and we want it to happen in a week. I think James Arthur Ray appealed to that desire.
"You'll carve out your own destiny and quickly achieve the determination to live it," he said in his pitch for this Spiritual Warrior event. "There is no sacrifice -- only great and more magnificent results, wealth, adventure and fulfillment."
I believe working on ourselves is a life-long effort, made up of small daily choices, not the result a week-long seminar that promises miracles. And I think spas have a role to play in that effort, whether it means improving our physical health and well-being with regular massage, or getting the everyday tools to improve your life at health spas like Canyon Ranch and Rancho La Puerta.
Lots of news sources are Angel Valley Retreat Center a "resort" and a "spa" but in this case it was simply a private facility (and a very modest one at that) that Ray rented out for his seminar, which grossed more than half a million dollars.
It's a tragedy that these people paid so much money, hoping for something wonderful.....to be a powerful "mover and shaker" who has "a true understanding of the authority and strength that come from a life of honor." On the very deepest level, they were all betrayed.
I wonder how Ray feels about his "life of honor" now?
Comments
This is very sad; I’ve been to a seminar of his, and although he’s the “Secret Teacher” I’m least aligned with, I do believe he’s sincere about his mission… but someone did not do their due diligence regarding safety concerns.
All the attendees paid a high emotional price in this experience – and James is probably going to have to pay out numerous lawsuits unless he can prove he was misled in some way.
I think the “breaking down to build up” mentality can be very dangerous…and proves that even adults can submit to peer pressure – with deadly results.
I would pray for everyone that was touched by this tragedy – they’re all going to need it.
actually, I have a friend who was camping out with a seperate non-related group. His story involves some facts. He noticed hellicopters comin in thier cam around 7:30pm Thursday. He and his friends thought that it was guest speakers getting flown in or something. Then after hearing the chaos and commotion, they realised that those were med-copters, like four big ones. Before leaving they got word from other people who were there that did not go in the lodge. This is what he found out….
…. This idiot who calls himself a guru, is just a white-boy rip-off artist and the area around here is full of them, non-native american con-artist basically, who calaims to know all this Native American tradition, blah,blahblah.
Whoever lead this lodge put Datura (one of the most poisionous and halucinigenic plants in the world) on the hot lava rocks. People started halucinating, vomiting and all and dieing basically, and they all ran out and fell in the creek sustaining injuries, and two died, from Jimson Weed.
There are traditional medicinal sweatlodges where the leader mixes herbal medicines in with the water that he splashes on the rocks, that is common.
This was a totally bullshit artists version of a sweat , and he obviousely dont know to many natives around here or they would have never recommended using Datura in any form of any kind, espicially to a bunch of clueless yuppies with to much money, or anybody. Bottom line is, this guy is a bad medicine man who poisioned and killed folks, also I heard about 20 victims are in mental health hospitals now, and other victims have lost thier sight all together and might be permanently blind.
I have seen this movie before actually in my life. Same exact one, somebody using Datura and dieing, but this guy I hear kinda just threw it on the rocks, poisioning and killin’ folks. He needs to do some time, if not the rest of his natural life.
I apologise about my ranting, and I am not the best literally schooled. I just am saddened to here this story and it kinda hit close to my home. It will come out that this has to do with Datura poisoning.
Not everyone is a sweat lodge leader. You have to be in constant prayer while in that sacred spot. Unfortunately, he wasn’t. I do a lodge at stewart mineral springs in weed california and it is NOT about money, and of course it isn’t instant fix, it takes a long time to purifiy your body, mind and soul. We just need to pray for these ones.
From all that I have read about sweat lodges, several mistakes were made in the construction and operation of the one at this retreat. The biggest mistake was likely the number of people participating at one time. The result was death at the hands of greed.
James Ray is not a Native American spiritual leader. His cultural appropriation of the sweat lodge for whatever his “warrior week” was supposed to be, demonstrates profound disrespect for a sacred Native American tradition. He has no legitimacy to be offering sweat lodges, and I image that Native American medicine healers are shocked and offended by what happened in Sedona, not to mention devastated that one of their most sacred practices (misused) resulted in sickness and death.
Putting 64 people into a sweat lodge that appears not to have been properly constructed, and charging people an exorbitant $9,000 for the experience, is both irresponsible and avaricious.
Apparently Mr. Ray makes participants sign waivers regarding physical injury, etc., and he will no doubt use this to try to wiggle out of any legal repercussions, such as lawsuits for damages. The best recourse, in my opinion, is to charge him criminally for negligence resulting in death, or even for homicide. The doctor who gave Michael Jackson the drugs that killed him is likely to be prosecuted because the coroner ruled Jackson’s death a homicide. So too should the police rule the Sedona sweat lodge deaths a homicide, and proceed with criminal charges against Mr. Ray and also perhaps against the owners of the retreat center.
Ever since the movie The Secret, which is a travesty of both logic and spirituality, so many people have been seeking the quick fix of the “law of attraction”, and falling into the clutches of self-help gurus who seem to have “the answer” for what’s wrong in their lives. People who blindly follow self-help gurus need to grow up and realize that they shouldn’t check their brains at the door when they go to an event, particularly if the event has an aspect that might carry some risks to health.
The rule of thumb for any self-improvement program should be CAVEAT EMPTOR, in my opinion. If you have $9000 to spend on your self-improvement, spend it on a legitimate therapist (i.e., licensed and trained), not on a motivational speaker who uses the gift of the gab and who appropriates practices the he/she does not understand adequately and that carry some risk to people’s health and wellbeing.
I feel badly for the real native healers in and around Sedona, for surely they must be feeling that one of their most sacred ceremonies has been degraded and given a bad name by the actions of Ray and his ilk. It is likely that many people will now become frightened by sweat lodges and won’t realize that a sweat lodge properly done by a native healer who was raised in the tradition is not likely to result in injury or death.
Why does it take a tragedy to wake people up and make them realize that there is no “quick fix” for life’s situations? As I said, Caveat Emptor.
I agree with Sharon above that The Secret is a travesty of both logic and spirituality. Some of us have been blogging about this stuff for a long time. Unfortunately, it takes tragedies like the James Arthur Ray sweat-lodge debacle to wake more people up to the fact that much of the New-Wage/McSpirituality stuff is absurd at best, potentially harmful at worst.
I cannot help but feel that this is divinely-distributed consequence. A white man’s recklessness with a most sacred and personal ritual of the Indian Nation. And at an exorbitant price. The more money it costs, the better it must be, right? How foolish!
Christine Marya has expressed many of my sentiments. Thank you.
I too was dismayed by the self-righteous tone and unwarranted, unkind assumptions of Anitra Brown’s commentary. The “authorities” have not determined what happened either logically or psychologically. So any pronouncements based on third hand, rehashed Associated Press derivatives are baseless at best.
How do we know the participants wanted a quick fix? How do we know that some of them have not been on sincere spiritual paths for decades?
How do we know that the organizer, Mr. Ray, was “irresponsible”? Apparently he has led sweat lodges many times. He didn’t start out charging $9K per person. He somehow developed a following.
As a spiritual seeker and spiritual teacher, who has participated in (but not led) sweat lodges, I know that there are many layers to this story, both physical and metaphysical. On the physical level, no one knows what “caused” the morbidity and mortality. Hypoxia, chemical toxicity, dehydration? No one knows and even when we “know” (jnana) we probably won’t “know” (prajna). On the spiritual level, the means and moments of death are chosen by us. The physical cause is the “how.” It is not the same as the metaphysical “why.”
Even some so-called spiritual people have greedily grabbed onto the worst Judeo-Christian-New Age myths of Original Sin or “karma” and punishment/retribution. What a travesty and misunderstanding of our place in the Divine Consciousness/God/Spirit/All That Is.
There is an old Broadway musical called Kwamina. It is about the African rituals in which people offer themselves up to die just by willing themselves to so. In Kabbalistic practice, seekers can die if they go “down” too far. Did some of that happen here?
Would I pay $9,000 for a self-help guru? No.
Would I go into a sweat lodge with 50 others. No.
But I can only assume that those who did, as well as Mr. Ray, had good intentions and sincere, if possibly naive, expectations in doing so.
There is another Native American tradition at play here: Kokopelli/Coyote/Trickster. Perhaps Mr. Ray is meditating on him right now as must all of us who get on our high horses only to find that pride goeth before a fall. We are all guilty of hubris, wanting quick fixes, wanting someone else to show us the Way, not taking personal responsibility for our own Way.
Ram Dass teaches, “Tat Tvam Asi,” literally “thou art that.” We are all that. We are James Ray, we are those who died, those who got sick, and those who live to learn from this experience with humility and compassion.
Beverley Kane, MD
A fool and his money is easily parted. Shame these fools paid with not just money.
Incredible how so many opinions weigh in with just what the media twists into our ears about what happened in Sedona. I am torn, because I have been to see James Ray, he has inspired me to do something great in my life, nudged me, and it was my choice, my decision to act upon that thought, that decision – to act upon my thoughts that have brought about the project that is in place for me. I can’t stand the price that is charged to see the man, to go on the different events that James has to offer, but he has reason to charge, he has people to pay, guides to aquire, there’s so much to the events that he proposes. I think when a person forgets that he/she has a brain of his/her own and decides that there is one here on earth making the decisions in life for him or her, then we are in grave danger when we choose to these self help events. It is then a better choice to spend the money on a therapist or counselor as a one on one treatment, rather than a group self seeking awareness event. James never claims to be God nor does he insist that he sets rules to any of his events. You are your own person first, that is what self seeking is all about. I think my own Native American heart would have told me that the sweat lodge didn’t feel right. A person can have experiences beyond one’s wildest imaginations simply sitting under the stars that God created and James Ray isn’t going to hold a gun to your head to make you go into that dome instead of following your intuition.
My disappointment is that James left the state and went back to CA immediately. I understand perfectly why he didn’t talk to the media. They twist a pretty story and create whatever they want us to believe, feed us what suits their needs, rather than work hard at finding truth or accepting something as extraordinary. However, James, you should have stayed in the state. James, you should be contacting each individual, starting with the families of the deceased and talking to them right away. Silence is not the best for your students right now. We are waiting to see what your next move is. Make it count.
I have read the comments about the tragedy, and read only one that knew what they are talking about. I have been in many and I do mean many sweat lodges. I have been taught by Native Elder’s and Teachers, I’ve been to several sundances. I’ve never seen a lodge built so large. These people did not know what they where doing. This ceremony is very Sacred and is FREE. How sad that people put a price on something that is free.
I hardly know where to start — but thank you for all your comments. People are coming at it from a lot of different viewpoints and experiences, and I think it helps to have a place where we can talk about this tragic event. People have died, psychological damage done (including, I imagine, to Mr. Ray — that’s what I meant when I said I wonder how he feels about his “life of honor”), reputations destroyed, businesses hurt, and practices like fasting and sweat lodges that are beneficial when done safely called into question.
It’s true we don’t know all the facts yet, and Sedona Local raises an intriguing possibility of what might have gone wrong in the sweat lodge with the eye-witness account of his friend. (But if someone DID throw jimson weed on the rocks instead of sweetgrass, how would you know who did it when there are 64 people in there?)
I really do feel for everyone involved in this tragedy. Even Mr. Ray.
Perhaps the energy you put into the blame, shame, fear, intimidation and guilt you put on others by your judgmental opinions could better be serving your readers and the dead with dignity and respect. They were Mr. Ray’s students, like myself, and well loved by him. If you consider mistakes were made, it appears to me you are doing just the same.
As Dr. Hollis says, Mr. Ray’s events, including the few hours in the sweat lodge at the end of a week-long event which people obviously were willing to pay for, have been successful for many years and perhaps something misunderstood needs to be examined before judged.
The saddest part of society — mediocrity — emerges to attack excellence simply because some are unwilling to step up to what they themselves would have to do to join others of like mind at the highest levels, or even to become the best they can possibly be.
As a student of many spiritual advisors and traditions including the Native American, your spiteful “wondering” tongue can only bring the same to you and others you inspire. Is judge-jury-executioner your legacy? Perhaps a sweat lodge is exactly what those who love blame need to emerge into another aspect of beauty and a greater life. If you know anything about life from the Native American tradition or any other Spiritual tradition, you may know that the natural cycle of life is birth, death and re-birth.
Aside from the truth of the facts that we all die when we choose to go, spiritually ascending, those who cannot venture into the unknown do so because of their own fears.
Some say it this way: Explore death and get a life!
Like each of us, all of those participants have free will and any of us can be easily dehydrated from sun, overworking, heat of many sources or lack of water on a daily basis. Working in a spa on a regular basis, knowing all forms of heat require additional hydration, I am constantly amazed by how little people drink water to survive every day.
We need a gallon each day in my opinion and according to many university tests. And there are those who say we can die of too much water.
So there you have it, the law of polarity states we will always have the opposites contained within the whole.
Be good to yourself by being good to others. As Jesus said, Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. As the Hopi have said, “We are the ones we have been waiting for!”
Respectfully,
Christine Marya
Licensed Massage Therapist
Death in a SWEAT LODGE
The only death occuring in a sweat lodge should be from the ego. Too many people are bastardizing the Native American Spiritual Ceremonies for their own greed. Sadly, the news is now reporting the deaths of two people and hospitalization of many others due to a WHITE man’s version of Native American Religion. There is a reason the Indiginous are wary of the white man. This ROBBING of their culture happens far too often. Gurus proclaiming they will show you the “WAY” for a high price and people desperate enough to pay. A man covering a lodge w/ PLASTIC- jamming 64 PEOPLE in at once – and continuous bringing in of hot rocks, obviously without any breaks between or water given.
This is NOT how a sweat lodge was meant to be done. Certainly and foremost for a price??.. True Sweats from TRUE NATIVES are FREE.. They are not ALLOWED to charge for their ceremony- but just let the whites get their hands on it and GREED RULES!!! and now death happens. There IS A POWER behind an authentic sweat lodge. It is not a game, or something to make light of- Again the Indians will be looked at as doing these crazy ceremonies…..that kill people. I have been in MANY sweats. They are Hotter than blazes, sick people, elderly and even children share the lodges I have been in. They are safe and the people are protected when they are done with respect and lead by a Native American. Will the white race ever learn to stay within their OWN boundries of understanding and stop stealing from other cultures? I doubt it.
Well… I first heard the news from a friend who was attending this event in Sedona in an email before it hit the news. Shock and horror were what I felt.
I first saw James Ray in “The secret” when it first came out. I attended a seminar in 2007 with my daughter for $1000 for both of us. It was his “introductory” seminar, harmonic wealth weekend and my daughter and I both felt that it was well worth it and very empowering. After that, his seminars were way over the top and I wouldn’t pay anyone that kind of money for what he offered.
I have been studying with native americans, Peruvian shaman and kahuna since my teen years and have paid very little if anything at all for teachings that were gifted to me.
I have done sweats and all kinds of ceremonial cultural things for cleansing and empowerment. James Ray has been doing these seminars for a long time with alot of different people from all walks of life who choose to pay him the big bucks. Some have broken arms and fingers from trying to break through wood and granite. My daaughter and I both broke through wood at our seminar without a scratch. It was a great metaphor and especially for my daughter who was a troubled teen. It took her 30 x and finally she broke through. Her wood had a knot in it and so did her life. She changed that day.
My feeling iz that I cannot be too quick to judge before I have all of the facts. We don’t know for sure what happened. Some guy here says datura was involved. How does he know? First hand? What I do know is that they used plastic on the sweat lodge which I have never heard of and also way too many people at once. That will be someone’s responsibility to answer to.
I have always liked James Ray. I think his intentions are pure except he charges way too much for his seminars. He is very talented and has alot to offer people who choose to pay for his services, however, I feel like money has gotten in the way of product. Not being responsible enough.
This is a wake up call to all of us to take care of ourselves no matter what. I personally would not go into a sweat lodge with so many people and if I felt discomfort at all, I would leave as I dont care what other people think. I care more about how I feel.
I feel very compassionate to all involved. We are all human and will fail at one time another in our lives. My deepest condolences to the people who were injured and lost their lives and especially their families. This is a very sad tradgedy.
Thank you Anitra for emailing me that you deleted my entry in error after seeing it posted below your other article. I see you were able to repost it after all. Thank you. And I’m glad we can open a discussion whereby the greatest of all fears, that of death, can be addressed, and maybe lightened for many as it has been for me, by both Mr. Ray, and Abraham-Hicks.
It is one of the greatest debilitating truths and we all really need to open up to understanding death in order to live bigger lives — fuller, richer, happier, healthier, longer! — which is what James Ray teaches. Most of us live all our lives in the limit of the fear of death, as I did. We wander around observing, witnessing how horrible things are because it’s killing something, trying to do what we can to “survive”. We spend most of our energies working for others or fighting others’ causes instead of creating for ourselves. We all need to see the bigger picture that there is no death! We merely transform into another form and when we get this fact at its core we can really start creating in massive ways because we’re not being overshadowed by this unconscious limitation or timeframe. Our true “life” is our power, and it is ongoing. Infinite and eternal. Study Einstein, modern scientists and all spiritual leaders and see they agree. There is a Divine power in us that nobody can explain!
No, James Ray doesn’t say he’s God, he says we’re all Spiritual Beings living a human experience. Study Abraham-Hicks and you’ll see they say we are all, each of us, IS God. I say it this way, for over 10 years now, before ever hearing of “the secret” of our power: we are the faces of God, each a breath of the eternal flame.
However we want to understand it, metaphorically or in reality, Abraham-Hicks, James Ray, and others who really understand that we have this power of God in us for our use every moment of every day know how to use this power, no matter how we, those of us who don’t get it, think it actually works.
We are all One, as Dr. Kane states. Thank you, for your profound commentary. Obviously to grow we all need to study more. The law also says if not growing we’re dying. We see this in nature. It’s not rocket science. I don’t see anybody but the destitute packing their bags for their final trip but the truth according to the most enlightened of all time, eons of time, is that we simply transform. Each and every one of us makes the decision at the spiritual level, to depart from this form and choose another. Just because we don’t understand our spiritual nature at this level doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. There should be nothing about death to be considered “bad” or that we should fear because we return instantly to our pure omnipotent magnificence. Abraham says it’s like walking through the door. Imagine being back in our who-we-really-are vehicles after exiting this body. How wonderful that must be!
I’m so excited because these teachers have paved the path for me to see how to be as high as a kite on life! I’m just now practicing the power he and others have taught me and starting to energize more $, something I’ve struggled with for many years before “The Secret”. Most of what I have learned from James and the others is free. I’ve been to one event, the Harmonic Wealth Weekend. There he teaches the power that we each have and the laws we exist in, and without knowing them cannot possibly utilize them to our advantage.
It’s the greatest gift in the Universe, understanding our power! This is James Ray’s mission in life and he energizes the enlightenment of the truth of our power for us, giving all of himself to us so that we can truly live a life of our own choosing, not some default because of the “hand we were dealt.” I am absolutely certain he is devastated by this occurrence and I send him and all the others involved the greatest loving energy that I can. This is something we can each do for ourselves, others and the world to be a better place for all, every day.
What most people don’t understand is that James charges the big money, which is just a form of energy, because he’s teaching us how to create this form of energy, from within! along with all the other aspects of being in business for which he has to cover his costs. Other retreats around the world are about the same from what I’ve priced, in this industry and others. Wouldn’t you be thrilled if $10k was a drop in the bucket for you too? I’m really looking forward to that day for myself!
I am aware James also has an all-encompassing event this week which is the likely reason that he left AZ, if in fact he did. In his book he discloses everything personal about himself and he always takes a few days after his retreats to rest since he’s working 16-hour days consecutively to serve others this life-improving information and more importantly to understand, what he offers is an experience. Because we only learn by experience.
But what we see and read about comes mainly from the news. When my sister drowned in Lake Michigan years ago, another woman drowned trying to save her life. A third woman almost drown as well trying to save my sister. It was the week after Labor day, there were no lifeguards and believe it or not the power went out when people tried to use the phone to get rescue assistance. It was just their time to go is all! But do you know that the news reporting only got about 60% of the facts correct in this simple case of drowning. It taught me we cannot believe 100% in the news to be true. Just try playing the game of telephone in a room of 10 people. You’ll see what I mean by the time the third person gets the information being passed.
I haven’t found the entry yet on a plant or plastic involved in the sweat lodge departures but thinking about it, in a transcending experience we may not even be aware we are running out of oxygen, which most cannot be without for longer than a minute. How would any of us react even in a room of 12, especially if someone passed out? If they were indeed there for 2 hours it seems they must have been fine for a long period of time. Speculating can make things harder.
As Kahlil Gibran states in “The Prophet,” pain is the breaking of the shell of our understanding. Blessings to each and every one. And may we all understand, again.
Spiritual as we are, on the physical plane we are human. We make mistakes. We can love instead of blame. We’re all going to transform anyway, so we can live it up and celebrate life while we have it, honor death and then celebrate rebirth again as well. Looks like celebrating wins this equation when we choose it.
Thank you,
Christine Marya
Whenever an accident or mistake happens, there will be people bashing away ‘told you he’s no good’, inventing the source of the mistake.
We’ve got a few of those comments here.
But a lot of the comments surprise me in a positive way!
They don’t try and guess what happened (and make it sound like they knew), they state what they think about it, as an opinion, not a fact, like a real grown up should be able to!
Honestly, I don’t think anyone really knows what happened, even those who had been inside the sweat lodge might not really be aware of the cause of the accident.
And I expect especially James Ray to be really surprised and aghast about all this.
I don’t believe he has done this on purpose, and I don’t think he was clueless about the process. He tries hard to get people to push their own limits, and I think he might have pushed a bit too hard, this time, coinciding with some other things that went wrong.
Maybe we’ll never know. Hopefully there is something to learn here.
What I find interesting: Once a long time ago, James Rays life crashed all around him because of an accident (as he himself tells at his harmonic wealth workshops).
I wonder if he feels like this old wound is opening again, his world is crashing around him again due to an accident, like before?
When you see the words –
“There is no sacrifice — only great and more magnificent results, wealth, adventure and fulfillment.”
– you have to wonder. Nothing in this life comes without
sacrifice, along with hard work. That’s the nature of existence.
Sad, that tragedy can spring so easily from people either foregetting this, or not wanting to accept it.
I love what the great Reverend Dr. Michael Beckwith explains sacrifice means: to make sacred, to make everything we do and honor every thing in life as sacred, because everything literally is the Divine and a creation of the Divine, including us. Including everything seemingly “bad” that happens, because it is all purposeful for our growth, contrast giving us the impetus to look to and choose what we prefer. This is the way I strive to live each day since hearing this wonderful explanation. Our language is the reflection of how we think, the key to creating everything in our lives!
I trust this may help everyone understand our pain.
VERY SAD FOR THOSE WHO HAVE LOST THEIR PRECIOUS LIVES. NATIVES WHO KNOW THE LAND AND HAVE LIVED ON THE LAND AND KNOW THE GIFTS THE LAND HAS GIVEN THEM AND THE SPIRITS AND THE HIGHER LEVEL OF UNDERSTANDING OF ITS GIFTS KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING AND YES I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF OTHERS GIFTS ITS NOT THIS INDUSTRY OF SPAS RESORTS DAY SPAS MEDICAL SPAS ITS THE WHOLE INDUSTRY MASSAGE ETC … THERE ARE ALOT OF FRUIT LOOPS OUT THERE AND ALL YOU GOOF BALLS SHOULD BE SCOOOPED UP AND PUT ON AN ISLAND AND GO AT EACH OTHER WITH YOUR RIDICILOUS ACUSATIONS AND OPINIONS ABOUT WEATHER SO AND SO IS A DIVINE ONE..OK TRUTH IS SADDNESS HAS OCCURED PEOPLE HAVE LOST THEIR LIVES… AND I AGREE WITH THE GREED FACTOR…AND YOU ALL SHOULD START THINKING ABOUT THE GREED FACTOR I HOPE EVERYONE WHO FALLS INTO THIS LITTLE GREED POCKET GET A GOOD CASE OF KARMA BACK ON THEM TEN FOLD…SOUNDS LIKE MAKING 9,000 A POPP WILL BE ENOUGH TO PAY HIS ATTORNEY FEES…ENOUGH SAID
While everyone would agree that James Ray’s intentions are sincere and with all due respect to light workers on the planet this is a wake up call to all those blindly following gurus and giving away thousands of dollars.
The bottom line here is that we are all responsible for our own decisions and our own spiritual development. Irrespective of what anyone else said or thought I would never go into a sweat lodge, or a sauna for that matter, as I know the danger.
This is a terrible and sad tragedy for everyone involved but for me it is sends a very clear message – you don’t need to sit in a sweat lodge or even walk across coals to grow spiritually. Everything that we do in our daily life is a catalyst for our spiritual development, all we have to do is be more present and pay attention.
I’m truly shocked by the event that took place in Sedona, my heart goes out to all involved in the situation.
As a woman that has been doing Sweat Lodges for nearly 10 years now (first one was when I was 16), I really just want to spread the word that if a Sweat Lodge is done properly by the proper people that it truly is a safe thing. I’ve attended the same lodge for the past 10 years, I would never ever dream of going to some “New Age” wannabe Sweat Lodge thrown together like that simply because it is not authentic. I’ve been in Sweat Lodges with parents, children, elderly, and even very very sick people and nothing bad has happened to any of them. When done correctly it truly is a remarkable experience. Also, you should NEVER have to pay for one as well, if someone is asking for a large sum of money for a Lodge please be weary, I’ll admit I’ve brought contributions to a lodge in the form of material for prayer ties, tobacco, water, sage, sweetgrass, etc. but never have I gone broke going to a lodge.
If James A. Ray was properly trained, which I’m not one to say he was or wasn’t but judging by the fact that he put so so many people into a 415 sq. ft. lodge, covered it with PLASTIC and blankets, and opened up to continue adding rocks every 15 mins. really makes me assume that he had no business messing around with a lodge. It is a sacred ceremony, it’s real and generally it is safe.
I’d also like to hear about the “spiritual exercises” that they were doing in the lodge, and also would like to know what type of rocks did they use in the lodge. Or even who was communicating with Spirit? Ironically, James A. Ray has been unavailable for comment.
I don’t doubt that he’s a self help guru, but Native American medicine man….I think NOT!!!! People shouldn’t mess with things they don’t know about, and it’s ashame that this tragedy happened, those people’s lives did NOT have to be put in jeopardy, and I really hope he never attempts to perform another sacred ceremony.
Wow, love is so much better than this ranting, raving and make-wronging. Blessings to each and every one, and may you find compassion and mercy before you crucify again.
I’m leaving this conversation but if you would like to read more on the truth about James Ray, the Love and absolute creative power we each have, that he teaches all of us, most of it for free on his website, along with a score of others who love us enough to share it all, then google Christine Marya and The Alchemical Nugget.
Each of us is the Divine, all of Life is sacred. Love is our true power. BeCause you are the Divine excellence is your calling! Share this and get a little love in your life!
He ran from the scene! This is how much he cares! Why is no one reporting on this!
First reports said he was interviewed at the scene. Since then everybody is accusatory.
The story has yet to be revealed. People are sick and dead. Have a little respect and wait for the truth.
It could have been that somebody tripped on the way out causing a fall or clothes catching fire, maybe Mr. Ray doesn’t have full view in a crowd if somebody passes out getting up.
Why is it humans not on a spiritual quest are always quick to assume the worst and condemn others. That says who you are. God bless you.
I just had a conversation with a Native-American who leads sweat lodges, and he said no matter how hot sweat lodges get, even if they have plastic on them, even if there were 60 people in there, even if they fasted, even if they ate a big meal before, even if people aren’t accustomed to the heat, even if they were in there for two hours without a break — it shouldn’t kill a healthy person. And in this case 2 died and 19 more were affected. He brought up the possibility of food poisoning, which is total speculation, but something I haven’t seen or heard anywhere else.
It could take a few weeks for the toxicology reports to come in, so we’re just going to have to wait and see.
A sweat lodge is a native american ceremony. Just as a Mass is a christian Catholic ceremony.
You should not call whatever you want a sweat lodge any more than calling anything at all a mass.
You never pay for either of these sacred ceremonies. They are both considered sacred cereminies by those who follow those ways.
If a man who is not a priest held a “ceremony” and called it a Mass and had people flagallate themselves to connect to christ and then drink large amounts of “sacremental wine” he would not be respected by Catholics. His version of a mass would be considered in bad taste at best if not disgraceful, or profaning what is sacred.
Sweat lodges are the same way. They a ceremony for prayer and purification of body mind and soul. They are conducted by those who have spent years learning the right way and the right attitude. One needs to learn to do it in a kind humble good way. Not for greed or to impress the women or any other negative intent. This is important. Deep humble respect of the fire and water and stones and people and ceremony is needed first to do it in a sacred way.
A man who charges thousands of dollars for a supposed “Native American Ceremony” of his own concotion that resembles only slightly a true sacred ceremony is being very disrepectful of the sacred ceremonies of Native Americans.
This is not what I consider spiritual. Condoning and supporting such practices and people does not seem spiritual. This is just my opinion.
I would not hold a spiritual teacher or leader who needs to act this way in high esteem.
He may do good things for people. No one is all bad or all good.
I feel bad for the families and freinds of all who were misled about going to a Native American ceremony. I hope they realize they were lied to.
The death of two people and the sickness of 19 or so others is frightening but it is not new. There have been a few sweat lodge deaths in off reservation communities. The deaths have almost exlusively been non-Indian in ceremonies run by non-Indians.
I am not here to assign blame to one person but many traditional rules were broken and continue to be broken every day at these spas and self help seminars. There is a belief that our ceremonies are somehow open for anyone and that is not the case.
There are proper ways to learn, and steps to take before one can become a water pourer. If you are asking why then please think back to the 2 people who are dead and 19 others injured.
Arthur may be a good person. He may be a great person and wants only the best for everyone, But he has no business pouring water in a sweat lodge. I say this without hate or malice to the man, but all those people were under his care. He is ultimately responsible for their health and wellbeing. Something happened, I do not know what but I have some ideas. It was Arthur’s job to keep those people safe and he missed something somewhere and 2 people paid the ultimate price.
I am Lakota and we have been trying for years to get non-Indians to stop using and selling our ceremonies. This is not about race or old hatreds but simple safety, that safety is your own.
Please for your own well being leave the sweats to those that have been properly trained over years. Our traditions and ceremonies are difficult and can at times be dangerous.
With respect to those who lost their lives I send my send my deepest respects and condolences to their families and friends. To those who became ill I wish you a speedy recovery.
I don’t know how many details will be released to the public from the investigation and toxicology reports. I am very interested in their findings. I did read in one article that there were some breaks involved in the sweats. In another one that James has hired his own investigation team.
I have several concerns over the limited information we do have. For starters the cost, materials used to build the lodge, the fast, the buffet, the numbers of people and length of time. Not the best recipe looking back as hind sight is 20/20. Does anyone know if James had done any sweat lodges before?
Awaiting the results from toxicology and investigation. Not quite as fast as the TV shows.
Thank you Anitra for continuing the conversation…I had to come back and see how you were all feeling after all!
I can see one really good thing coming from all these comments and I’m guessing James Ray is already being moved to see this for himself, that at any future sweat lodge events an authentic trained water pourer as David Brown Eyes calls them can be hired, perhaps required by property owners who house them, to be present to lead the events.
I guess we don’t know that wasn’t actually done here, but the point is absolutely well taken in my mind. Thank you David.
Anitra, Perhaps an About.com page can be established whereby those who are expert in this area of Native tradition are listed, making themselves available for hire to lead sweat lodge events when others want to do them for their clientele, family or friends. That way, the proper tradition can be honored by all, and perhaps these heart-wrenching events can be put behind us for good.
There are other unrelated deaths in sweat lodge incidents news stories online, particularly in 2002, that honestly don’t surprise me now that I understand the true creative power that we have.
And I think the discussion, raising awareness, about all of it is all good. So thank you!
Please let me know if you’re willing to approach About.com about such a webpage, because if not interested in doing so, I am happy to develop a page on my website, InspireWorldPeace. David, can you tell us if such a site or listing exists already, or if there are “certified” water pourers that belong to a group, membership or association other than being known in their own tribes? That would be good to know, and what you think of the idea given your statement that you’ve been trying for years to get this some control accomplished. Is it appropriate thing to consider organizing and do? If not perhaps you could give the names and contact info on those willing on an individual basis.
On another note to everyone, what I do know of James Ray, is that he teaches accountability as one of the most essential facets of our existence. This is why I am certain he is probably suffering the most, and why such condemning reflex statements on the part of people who don’t know this are so offensive to me as one of his students, well founded in these traditions in my own beliefs. I know that in due time we will have important answers that will indeed preserve the ancient traditions that everybody commenting here, and I know he himself so deeply respects. I believe anyone studying his works easily sees as I have that it’s the foundation of himself, his life, his mission, what he teaches and lives for in serving others.
I also would like to tell Sophia that I am already on an island, and don’t argue with anyone on the basic fact that each of us is the Divine!
and I love the healing arts as my own work because I too can serve others by assisting in their healing. As my heart bleeds for my ancestors in Spirit who feel torment or conquered by any outside source, I wish you the greatest blessings and love. Who knows but Spirit, that calling us together might be that we can heal more here than originally meets the eye.
I wonder if Mr. Ray went through the process of acquiring a pipe and the rights to perform sweatlodge ceremonies. In my experience this takes maby years of selfless service and a committment to follow your teachers’ instructions. I know that if you approach the right person with enough money you can be Given (or rather Buy these sacred gifts).
My prayers are there for all affected and may we never see a repeat of this type of incident again.
When I read The Secret, I was shocked by the greed it expounded. I could not finish it. The energy in that book was not the simple, delightful spirit I and many others have come to know as the Divine. For me, the energy in that book seemed manipulative.
We do not need to manipulate the Universe or our own spirits or bodies to find Truth. We simply need to open our eyes. Some of the greatest Teachers we have among us are simple creatures such as dogs and horses and birds that make music by nature!
Yes, Anitra, it is so true that we need to be careful who we trust, especially with our bodies and our vulnerabilities. It breaks my heart that these people trusted an organization that was seriously and maybe criminally flawed. Two young people died!
The money aspect of this ‘retreat’ is a tough one to read about. But that is what I read in The Secret. The truth will become clear in time.
It is OK for us to trust our guts. It is OK for us to say no to something that doesn’t feel right. I wonder how many of the people who enterd that giant plastic covered ‘oven’ ignored their misgivings when they entered….
Let’s pray for the wounded and the families of those who have died.
Christine Marya,
I understand where you are coming from and I also understand what you wish to accomplish.
There are issues here that many do not understand.
Maybe I can start with a bit of very painful history that is needed to frame my future comments on the issue of Indian spirituality outside of the Indian community.
1. It must be known that the practice of these ways was strictly outlawed by the United States Federal government. During the early reservation period people were jailed for running or even participating in our traditional ceremonies. The practices went underground for nearly a century. Our children were forcibly removed from our homes and placed in brutal boarding schools in hopes of destroying any Indian identity in an effort to assimilate us into the dominant culture.
This left us as a very broken people.
3. In the late 1960s many Indian people, having witnessed the civil rights struggles of African Americans decided to start taking control of our own identity. The American Indian Movement was formed and we brought our ceremonies back out into the open. Once again people were jailed and even killed to reclaim the rights to our own heritage.
2. It was not until 1978, no that is not a typo, that we were assured some measure of protection from the government with the passage of the American Indian Religious Freedoms Act.
Now that the history is taken care of. I would like to speak about current conditions on reservations.
The people on most reservations are living in abject poverty. Most of our precious holy men and women live in houses with dirt floors and no running water. They do not have cars or jobs. They survive by what little the communities can provide for them. It is sadly not much and they suffer greatly every day but are there to help anyone who is in need. Come to the door of any Lakota holy person with a handful of tobacco and they will help in any way they can.
That is our way. That is the way it has always been among our people.
Outside of our communities our spirituality is very big business. The very idea of charging people for healing is repulsive to our holy people. It violates very deeply held principles. We do not sell our culture and our traditions, not to each other and not to outsiders.
Anyone who would be willing to pour a sweat for a fee or even the common “love donation” has already strayed from the path. How dedicated are we to this philosophy? Just imagine how far 500 thousand dollars would go on the Pine Ridge reservation.
Our true spiritual leaders do not write books, they do not hold seminars, they do not travel spreading the ceremonies and traditions, for our ways are not missionary in nature.
So Christine I hate to disappoint you but there is no list, and there never will be. when money changes hands for ceremony our traditions are already deeply violated.
In all fairness our holy people will gladly accept payment but only after services have been rendered and then payment is given with what the receiver of services can give. It can be a horse, a truck, a bag of groceries, or a pack of cigarettes. Our spiritual leaders will never be on Oprah or the Today Show or write books.
Until someone understands this it is best that they stay away
I am deeply sorry that I can not give you what you want. And I hope you understand why.
I didn’t read “The Secret” but saw the movie and I thought there was both a wonderful spiritual side (”send love to receive love”) and a willingness to put it to commercial use — “think about the house you want and end up living in it!” I don’t know if Mr. Ray was one of the ones that was talking about the commercial side, with the piece of paper that said $100,000 or whatever above his bed.
Right now we’re waiting for more facts. (Too bad they tore down the sweat lodge!) What bothers me is the huge amounts of money Mr. Ray was asking for the retreat — at that point it doesn’t seem like it’s about being a spiritual teacher, but about becoming wealthy — and that he was asking people to go beyond their boundaries, and that created an unhealthy atmosphere in the sweat lodge.
Here’s an interesting article from a writer who says she has a full transcript of a call that took place between Mr. Ray and people who were involved in the retreat, after it happened, supplied by someone on the call. I find it very creepy.
Wow! I can’t believe this happened…actually I can beleive it. It was just a matter of time before a non-native, self-proclaimed- spiritual shaman hurt somebody. I was in Sedona earlier this year and was looking for a sweat lodge experience. I looked at some brochures at the local hotel but, they were all white folks speaking of their shaman ways (not to mention quite a bit of $$). I’m sorry but, I just didn’t feel right about following someone that isn’t Native American. I’m glad I didn’t use any of their services(think it saved my life!). True Shaman have ancestorial wisdom they have spiritual knowledge a non-native cant ever equal.
If one needs spiritual awakening and a connection with God, one should sit quietly overlooking the Grand Canyon and become one with our amazing universe. Strive for rebirth through prayer, meditation and spiritual awareness. Marvel at the beauty of your new grandbaby; watch a Rufous hummingbird for an hour, marveling at his delicate beauty; join with a chorus of 200 singing Handle’s Messiah; sit alone overlooking the Grand Canyon and absorb all the glory and splendor of our universe; sit in silence beside an ill friend or relative, praying and loving together. These means to an awakened spirit seem more reasonable than cramming yourself into a sweat lodge and subjecting your body to unknown physical assaults. We in Arizona are always told to drink lots of water; stay our of the sun; beware of heat exhaustion. Yet, here we have folks being led into a proverbial fiery furnace. Authentic Native American sweat lodges are designed by those who ‘know the way.’ This veneration and practice is one of sanctity and purification. All research seems to indicate the sizes of these sweat lodges are much smaller, extremely manageable, and if one needs to get out of the lodge, it is easy to do so. I have a feeling those inside the Sedona lodge were unable physically (or mentally and/or emotionally) to head for the door. This tragic event is so very sad and unnecessary. My thoughts, prayers and love go out to all who have suffered and are suffering from this terrible ordeal.
Judith, I like what you have to say about going to the Grand Canyon for spiritual awakening!
“The saddest part of society — mediocrity — emerges to attack excellence simply because some are unwilling to step up to what they themselves would have to do to join others of like mind at the highest levels, or even to become the best they can possibly be.” Thus speaks Christine Marya
What, Dear?!
This sad event has nothing to do with excellence. James Ray is not being challenged for being excellent.
My Message: If you are in the thrall of a teacher, if you have a huge buy-in with a teacher or a program….WAKE UP. Drop the lingo, walk away, forgive yourself, save yourself.
YOU are your own guru. Get it? (or get a guru that is free or inexpensive, like a tree or clouds or a flower or a peanut butter sandwich…enjoy your real life….that is the best EXPERIENCE of all)
PEACE….sun flower
Aloha David Brown Eyes, Anitra, Et Al,
and to Karen, to whom I’d like to suggest she consider that our gut is our Spirit moving through us, and those of us who live by Spirit or our gut, are some of the ones speaking to you right now, some of whom you appear to oppose, here. At least, that is I.
and Aloha SunFlower, yes, I am my own guru, and a teacher too, and I teach that we have all the answers within, our own guru is the only true Way. And we are all teachers and all students all of the time. So I wrote a little bit here so you might understand better where I’m coming from, my gift to you, and everyone, especially those who make so many assumptions about one who deserves lots more dignity and respect from those who don’t know anything about him or the actual truth of the event bringing us together. He is a great leader. You too could be a great leader. Do you? Do you lead thousands? I’m sure you lead some, but thousands? We can use some more great leaders, don’t you agree?
Thank you very much David for the heart-bleeding truth of how “we” have treated each other over time. You did in fact give me what I wanted — the appropriateness of such a consideration, but getting the story, your story, with it is ultimately the keystone — the reopening of old wounds creates another opportunity for healing. And these are serious, very deep old wounds perpetuating suffering today.
I am also completely offended by those who have committed horrific genocide against you — your people — and others which also date back eons of time and unfortunately have made our lives and our planet into a considerably ugly place without proper healing. Yes it still goes on. I have and I believe all of us share in the feeling of these horrific events, at least I do and most people I know in my Maui community living a life in and of Spirit do. In fact, Hawaiians share a sense of “conquered” as many cultures have around the world.
This is why, in my knowing, Spirit nudges us to come together at such times — facing another event of sorrow, now it’s us on this blog representing the larger community — bringing us to another opportunity for healing and resolution and ultimately regaining wholeness, our integrity, which returns us to balance, harmony and potentially, happiness.
It’s the opening of old wounds however, that keeps them alive and continuous attention albeit unconsciously to that which brings suffering only perpetuates the suffering. And as you know, this is exactly what a life of being spiritual, also known as a “Spiritual Warrior” to some, is about. To transcend that which takes us away from Spirit, God, Love, and keep loving.
Of course, The healing has to, naturally, occur at the individual level, personally in each heart before it can reach the community and the World.
That’s why I recognize it’s so backwards to keep on the same cycle of verbal abuse, judgement and condemnation, it only creates more of the same. We must break the cycle of that pattern and break into forgiveness, compassion and love, individually and as a Whole.
Perhaps we need much more than a list, right? A meeting of the minds of leaders, hearts of the people, and we would probably all agree, the filtering in the money needed to propel poverty to prosperity.
But the money is just energy. It’s a concept, an idea. And the mindset of the lack of it keeps us stuck, in “poverty” thinking. And that’s why I’ve been so tremendously blessed to receive from the “success gurus” a new mindset as to what money is, because everything in our life comes from what we have in our mind. I needed this one missing piece of my Medicine Wheel to be Whole, bringing me into prosperity thinking across my Medicine Wheel.
When we understand the truth of our power in correct thinking: that everything we desire (of the father) on this Earth plane, is ours, delivered to us by our power, by the way our, “the” decision is made about it, we no longer would choose to think, feel, act, or be “conquered.” And that means for me and every individual in the world, that we can energize as much money as we want to because our limits are only in our mind.
WE choose victim or victor. We choose money or the lack of money. We choose good health by virtue of being happy or unhappy. We choose to become more intelligent, active, excited and passionate and grow or die. We choose to find the Life Force flowing through us or exit by slow or fast or whatever form of “death” we choose. We choose everything, including our own transformation, yes. It’s even confirmed by your own ancestors in the following book, further below. For the benefit of all readers, I’ll include a bit more first.
And we are the mirror, each of us to the other. So whatever we see in another is what we like or don’t like about ourselves. We are looking in the mirror when we look at others. As stated by Hyemeyohsts Storm in the introductory section called “The Circle” of his book titled “Seven Arrows.”
Storm also says here:
“There are levels upon levels of perspectives we must consider when we try to understand our individual perceptions of things or when we try to relate our own perceptions to those of our brothers and sisters. Every single one of our previous experiences in life will affect in some way the mental perspective from which we see the world around us.
Because of this, a particular object or event may appear fearful to you at the same time that it gives pleasure to me, or appears completely uninteresting to a third person. All things that we perceive stimulate our individual imaginations in different ways, which in turn causes us to create our own unique interpretations of them. Love, hate, fear, confusion, happiness, envy and all the other emotions we feel, act upon us to paint our perceptions of things in different colors.
If the thing I were to place within our circle should be an abstraction, such as an idea, a feeling or a philosophy, our perceptions of it would then be even more complicated than if the object had been a tangible thing. And further, the number of different perceptions of it would become greater and greater as more and more people were added to our circle. The perception of any object, either tangible or abstract, is ultimately made a thousand times more complicated whenever it is viewed within the circle of an entire People as a whole. The understanding of this truth is the first lesson of the Medicine Wheel, and is a vital part of Sun Dance Teaching.”
…here he talks about the Medicine Wheel, and each one of us being one, and in one, and then:
“All things are contained within the Medicine Wheel, and all things are equal within it. The Medicine Wheel is the Total Universe.
Our teachers tell us that all things within this Universe Wheel know of their Harmony with every other thing, and know how to Give-Away one to the other, except man. Of all the Universe’s creatures, it is we alone who do not begin our lives with knowledge of this great Harmony.
All the things of the Universe Wheel have spirit and life, including the rivers, rocks, earth, sky, plants and animals. But it is only man, of all the Beings on the Wheel who is a determiner. Our determining spirit can be made whole only through the learning of our harmony with all our brothers and sisters, and with all the other spirits of the Universe. To do this we must learn to seek and to perceive. We must do this to find our place within the Medicine Wheel. To determine this place we must learn to Give-Away.
The Vision Quest, or perceiving quest is the way we must begin this search. We must all follow our Vision Quest to discover ourselves, to learn how to perceive of ourselves and to find our relationship with the world around us.”
…then about the 4 directions, and until we walk them all …
After each of us has learned of our Beginning Gift, our First Place on the Medicine Wheel, we then must Grow by Seeking Understanding in each of the Four Great Ways. Only in this way can we become Full, capable of Balance and Decision in what we do.”
Then, “The Touching”:
“To Touch and Feel is to Experience. Many people live out their entire lives without ever really Touching or being Touched by anything. These people live within a world of mind and imagination that may move them sometimes to joy, tears, happiness or sorrow. But these people never really Touch. They do not live and become one with life.
The Sun Dancer believes that each person is a unique Living Medicine Wheel, powerful beyond imagination, that has been limited and placed upon this Earth to Touch, Experience and Learn. The Six Grandfathers Taught me that each man, woman and child at one time was a Living Power that existed somewhere in time and space. These Powers were without form, but they were aware. They were alive.
Each Power possessed boundless energy and beauty. These living Medicine Wheels were capable of nearly anything. They were beautiful and perfect in all ways except one. They had no understanding of limitation, no experience of substance. These Beings were total energy of the Mind, without Body or Heart. They were placed upon this earth that they might learn the things of the Heart through Touching.
According to the Teachers, thee is only one thing that all people possess equally. This is their loneliness. No two people on the face of this earth are alike in any one thing except for their loneliness. This is the cause of our Growing, but also the cause of our wars. Love, hate, greed and generosity are all rooted within our loneliness, within our desire to be needed and loved.
The only way that we can overcome our loneliness is through Touching. It is only in this way that we can learn to be Total Beings. God is a presence of this Total. Heamavihio, the Breath of Wisdom, and Miaheyyun, Total Understanding, are but two of the words in the Cheyenne language that express this Wholeness.”
and further…
“The Sun Dance Way itself is a Living Thing. It is always Growing and Turning within the People. It is not to be learned by studying archaic rituals or traditions, but by Seeking Understanding and then allowing it to Grow within your own Heart and Mind.”
and ending with:
“You too are a Medicine Wheel, and the magic of your Perceiving will be unfolded.”
It always is.
Whether you choose to accept it or not, James Ray is a great modern-day global leader of the “Sun Dancer Way” only it’s called different names in different languages, and in different traditions across the globe. I’m grateful for all our great leaders feeding me my Growing so that I can be Living and sharing my Understanding with Others Seeking.
Perhaps one day you’ll be grateful for it too.
There was an unfortunate accident, we are all wounded. Only In Harmony will we Heal Together. Now we know Only the color of our Heart matters. Let’s do it and be done with it, and be Whole Again.
Mahalo,
Christine
Sympathy for those who suffered and died and for their families left behind.I know nothing of the “sweat lodge conductor” other than what has been posted on blogs.I do know that when it comes to our ceremonies if some one wants you to pay it”s time to run away.If that some one is not native run faster.I know that this man is not a Sundance leader anymore than he was a sweat lodge conductor. I know that greed has got us to the sad state we are in world wide and that unless we change our Mother Earth will be unable to support us .How much better to spend all that money planting trees or cleaning rivers . We continually pray for people but forget about the rest of creation.Our ways always remember the rest of creation and that we are not the rulers but only a part of creation and that everthing is connected.Why do most so many nonnative people try to steal those things that they have spent so much energy trying to destroy?They seem never able to understand our simple teachings and change everything into greed. When all is destroyed and poisoned how will we eat money?
Our ceremonies are sacred and I have seen many good things come from the sweat lodge and the sun dance.
If there is any good to come out of this sad event I hope it will be that nonnative people learn that they learn that some things can not be stolen without paying a price that is too high.We are all paying the same when we consider the damage done to our environment and end of many species every day.
I feel sorry for all those who have swallowed the lie that says man has dominion over the rest of creation.Try to stop the wind or stop winter or earthquake etc. etc.
Today we all need money but we don’t need 3 cars , 6 bedroom houses ,boats, seadoos or umpteen other toys to be happy or successful .Chasing that other illusion has led us to where we are and a bunch of other unfortunate souls to a fake ceremony where the truth of this illusion was revealed. I would not be considered rich or successful by this illusions standards but I will work my way through all of my difficulties because I have faith in my ancestors teachings and my belief that we were not placed here by the Creator to be saved by some dumb ass that got lost looking for the fastest way to the walmart that wasn’t even invented yet.
I guess that save means destroy. Sorry but we are still here.
Christine.
So once again we must change… our land, our lives, our children, our way of life is not enough for you. Can you not respect us, and let us heal. do you understand the wound that you and your followers have opened within us?
do you not care?
Please do not try and lecture me on my own traditions Christine, To call what you and Arthur do as “sun dance way” You have no idea how offensive it is to someone who has suffered under that tree for all people for 8 years.
He is no spiritual leader… he is a con man, a thief of culture, and now a murderer of 3 people because he does not have proper training in how to use these ceremonies.
I am sure you will find ways to go one and make excuses and explain things away…
Maybe it is time for non-Indians to really listen to us, maybe get to understand what they are playing with and how dangerous it can be in the wrong hands.
I am done with you and with this place. I have had more than my share of insult.
we are nothing but an avenue to make money for you. Money is not spirit… it is paper and linen. nothing more, but I doubt you would ever understand the truth of things, and I am done wasting my words on you and yours.
How many deaths will it take for you and your people to have respect…. another 3, 10, 20, 100?
I apologize if you misunderstand my intentions, David, I was not lecturing you. I posted for Anitra and others, not for yourself alone, for greater understanding, as to where I am coming from, as many people are suffering in misunderstanding. I thought an explanation, beautifully given by H. Storm would be the greatest way to share what I know and believe about Life, with others to find peace within. That’s why I addressed it to you, Anitra and Et Al which means all others, everyone else reading, involved and suffering.
I was sharing the great teachings of how our perceptions dictate how we respond to these kinds of painful events because H. Storm explains it so much better than I ever could. I was sharing my belief in Life as he so beautifully expresses that which I often fumble my words on, and how the process of our creating our lives is based on our perceptions, and how important this knowing is, to be in harmony and in our power. And that of who we really are, and that power will only be ours when pure in Heart, in Love, honor, dignity and respect, for all that is Sacred.
I will never know your pain for the atrocities committed against you, and I care more than you can possibly imagine. Perhaps when you re-read what I wrote you will see I am attempting to reach out to you and resolve something, whatever I might find together with you to resolve for all the agony you and your people have suffered. Perhaps one day you will understand me or the truth of this story and have a change of heart about those of us you accuse to have ill will. I know Mr. Ray would not ever wish any harm on any of his students. It’s not logical. And he, along with many great teachers teach us that which you are stating, which I stated earlier. Money is only paper, an idea. And Mr. Ray’s fee was for a retreat of many days, not just the sweat lodge which culminated the retreat.
So are you saying you know what happened that day in that sweat lodge? Because as far as I know, nobody outside of the lodge knows and even some inside don’t know. It is being investigated. And I believe Mr. Ray’s training will be forthcoming for everybody’s scrutiny. Perhaps the toxicology reports will exonerate Mr. Ray. Perhaps he is guilty of not honoring your ways. We really don’t know if he there was food poisoning involved, as Anitra reported a sweat lodge leader suggested.
It is a challenge writing rather than speaking in person as our language can vary. I thought I was being clear. Please forgive any sense of disrespect I may have conveyed in this limited process and know that I deeply respect you and each human life and every rock, tree, plant, creature and Being as Spirit as it is I, even when we agree to disagree.
I share in what H. Storm knows and teaches us. Each of us is the Divine and deserves the deepest dignity and respect. Every thing is sacred. And there is no separation between us.
Aloha and Mahalo meaning may the breath of God be with you, with blessings, until we meet again,
Respectfully,
Christine
Christine.
Hyemeyohsts Storm, although well liked outside of Indian communities, is not considered a spiritual leader among the Cheyenne. Our spiritual leaders have requested, begged, demanded and even gone so far as to declare war in an attempt to get unqualified people to stop using our ceremonies.
The reason is that our spiritual leaders spend decades learning the proper songs, and methods needed to run these ceremonies properly and safely. They have been warning people for decades about the dangers of trying to imitate our ceremonies.
Arthur may have the best of intentions but he does not have the proper training and background. The resulting tradjedy in Sedona is the result. I do not believe anyone would lead a sweat resulting in deaths on purpose.
Something was missed here, bad construction of the sweat. Missing health conditions, not letting or shaming members into staying in the sweat when they need to get out. simply having too many people in the sweat to monitor them properly. It take years of training by qualified spiritual leaders to do it safely.
I would like to go back to our spiritual leaders wanting their wishes that these ceremonies stay within Indian communities.
How is it respectfull to ignore the wishes of our spiritual leaders? There are good reasons for their request.
All James Arthur Ray has to do is remove the Indian spirituality and ceremonies from his seminars until he has proper training and the blessings of our traditional leaders.
All we ask is that people respect our traditions, our spiritual leaders and their wishes. There are thousands of years of tradition and decades of instruction to properly participate and lead the ceremonies. Reading books will not provide the information necessary for leading the ceremonies.
That is what is missing from these seminars that use our traditions. The decades of service and learning are necessary for without them people can be hurt.
Because our traditions and wishes of our spiritual leaders are not being followed and respected 3 people are now dead. I have read explanations for the deaths that have turned my blood cold.
Every traditional leader is shaking their heads, some are downright angry say “we warned you”. We warned you again and again that something bad would happen and now that it has no one is taking a step back and asking if they are truly respecting the traditions or abusing them?
If you respect us and our ways, Christine then listen to our leaders and understand what they are saying and this incident should give those words a new frame of reference for you. I beg of you and others to exorcise caution and real respect of our traditions. They were developed for the safety of the people.
My calls and the same calls from our leaders for honor and respect of our traditions have always fallen on deaf ears. I had hoped that, if anything, this regretable incident would at least make people stop and think about the appropriateness of using our ceremonies in the way that Jame Arthur Ray has done.
so far I am not the encouraged.
Thank you David, for your response and further explanation. Now we are all more fully aware. I am encouraged because clarity and dialogue are needed to begin the process of resolution.
I have the greatest respect for you, your people and your traditions and although I am only one of millions I will do all I can to inspire what you ask of all non-Native peoples. I don’t know how yet, but I am certain Spirit will show me.
I will need your helping heart to guide me as you are willing. Perhaps we can continue dialogue here but I am uncertain as to how long this article and blogpost will remain here. Anitra, can you comment to that please?
David, my email is Christine@ChristineMarya.com. I appreciate any suggestions you may have as to how to get started including contact information for yourself or those who train and perform the traditional ceremonies, as appropriate, how to connect.
Thank you again for keeping an open heart and mind so that we can all have a knowing of and implement what your traditions require, what your hopes encompass and what your spiritual leaders declare, so that this tragedy may indeed birth the necessary healing.
Mahalo,
Christine
Hi Christine, Thank you for your open heart! This blog and all the comments will stay up forever, so feel free to keep the discussion going here. I’ve been impressed by how thoughtful and respectful people have been, even when we have strong feelings and disagree.
Thank you Anitra,
That’s great to know! I believe this will be an excellent starting point as I think it serves us all well as we can refer those coming into the conversation to what’s already been discussed. Certainly many will benefit by our mutual respect. And I look forward to upcoming discussions as we move forward in greater love and understanding, and the dignity and respect we all deserve.
I invite all interested parties in joining together in this honoring of our Native American brothers’ and sisters’ traditions to spread the word of their determination as declared by David Brown Eyes and his spiritual leaders to put an end to unqualified people using their Native traditional ceremonies.
And I invite all interested parties in joining this discussion of how to best communicate, educate and formulate this honoring into being, particularly those leaders and those trained, authorized and approved to lead such ceremonies.
I believe we can begin a forum David, now that we are aware we are here on this blog forever, therefore, please let me know your thoughts, and before I get into trouble, the appropriateness of doing so. Thank you, and
Mahalo,
Christine
He wouldn’t let them out of the sweat lodge after people were screaming. Can we say Jim Jones?
Wisdom teaches us patience for the facts. Unless you were witness in that lodge, if so, I’d really like to know. How would you know, hello?
You might feel comforted by what Anitra found out personally:
Anitra says:
I just had a conversation with a Native-American who leads sweat lodges, and he said no matter how hot sweat lodges get, even if they have plastic on them, even if there were 60 people in there, even if they fasted, even if they ate a big meal before, even if people aren’t accustomed to the heat, even if they were in there for two hours without a break — it shouldn’t kill a healthy person. And in this case 2 died and 19 more were affected. He brought up the possibility of food poisoning, which is total speculation, but something I haven’t seen or heard anywhere else.
It could take a few weeks for the toxicology reports to come in, so we’re just going to have to wait and see.
Thank you David, for your personal email. I am glad we can converse. Please forgive any delays in my responses as I am relocating now, and often without internet access. But I’d like to keep going and be able to post something here soon about what we have discussing, achieving harmony.
Warm regards,
Christine
“I believe working on ourselves is a life-long effort, made up of small daily choices, not the result a week-long seminar that promises miracles.” You nailed it, Anitra.
There are no quick fixes.
Best,
Geri Hearne
http://www.heavencantwait.org
One participant has gone public with her story about what went on in that lodge.
very sad.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091021/ap_on_re_us/us_sweat_lodge_deaths
Anita you were given bad information. We never ever use plastic to cover a lodge. for two reasons. 1 plastic does not breathe and 2 the heat can release toxins from the plastic.
food poisening? the people in that sweat had not eaten for 36 hours, how could it be food poisening?
anyway from the account
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Within an hour of entering the sweat lodge on the evening of Oct. 8, people began vomiting, gasping for air and collapsing.
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If done correctly the lodge should have been stopped immediately.
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Yet Bunn says Ray continually urged everyone to stay inside. The ceremony was broken up into 15-minute “rounds,” with the entrance flap to the lodge opened briefly and more heated rocks brought inside between sessions.
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Traditional lodges are 4 rounds. He kept them in there for 8 rounds. and chastized anyone for wishing to leave. Participants must be allowed to leave at any time.
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“I can’t get her to move. I can’t get her to wake up,” Bunn recalls hearing from two sides of the 415-square-foot sweat lodge. Ray’s response: “Leave her alone, she’ll be dealt with in the next round.”
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Once again when people start to collapse it is beyond time to end it. deal with it the “Next round” sorry you deal with it immediately.
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At one point, someone lifted up the back of the tent, shining light in the otherwise pitch-black enclosure. Ray demanded to know who was letting the light in and committing a “sacrilegious act,” Bunn said.
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No this is a sign of distress. We call it a “back door” and it is used when the heat gets “out of control” All of the above are a violation and an abomination of this ceremony. A person properly trained would never have allowed this to happen.
I have a simple question.
Where is James Arthur Ray’s compassion?
David, Thanks for this link about what went on in the tent — a very disturbing account.
Re: possible food poisoning, I was just passing on one Native American sweat lodge person’s opinion — he didn’t like plastic, but he said it wouldn’t have killed healthy people. Also, they fasted 36 hours then ate a big buffet that morning before the sweat.
A friend in Sedona says the word around town is that some toxic herb was thrown on the fire — again, this is total speculation and hasn’t been confirmed by toxicology reports, but it is what “Sedona Local” said early in this conversation: “It will come out that this has to do with Datura poisoning.”
At this point we’re all just speculating on what actually killed these three people — too much heat, too little oxygen, plastic tarps, toxic herbs, food poisoning — still, it’s clear from this account that Ray was trying to push people past their limits, and ignored the fact that they were collapsing.
I understand the Native-American fury that their cultural heritage and sacred rite was used in this way.
David Brown Eyes, you make a lot of sense to me. I am not aboriginal, but I always thought that sweat lodges were the preserve of the aboriginal people, having been told of such an event by a native friend of mine, many years ago.
I know of someone who was in that lodge and my heart is aching for her, even though she was not injured……just lucky. The financial and emotional cost to all are truly stunning.
Peace be with you.
Aloha, How is Everyone?
This is a pretty alarming account, certainly, and my heart continues to go out to the families, as it’s always toughest on those remaining on this Earth plane.
Personally, I know, from my own sister’s death that many news stories don’t get the facts right, even on a simple drowning, the local news stories got the simple facts about half right. The facts of who she was. Ive mentioned this before, so I never rest my belief in them. It’s because, like Hyemeyohsts Storm says, we have so many different perspectives, even in the dark.
However, what I did find out from a person inside the “sweat lodge” on James Ray’s Facebook blog, SPEAKING LIVE, is that this was not a “sweat lodge” as the Natives know it at all. Instead, maybe that’s what the structure was called, or the “event” in the structure was called on paper, but from what I understand it was maybe more of a type of “boot camp” exercise going on, in total darkness. I’m still trying to follow it all to get the full story.
Now I can better see where the great misunderstandings stem from, and more convinced than ever that we will need the official story to understand it for what really happened.
I know James Ray would never wish any harm on anyone in any way, always encouraging what the student can do, always with personal accountability. I believe James Ray will take accountability for his actions and the event when the time comes, with toxicology reports in hand, we’ll all put our speculation to rest.
I will continue to urge others to not buy into the many aspects of such stimulus that provokes strong emotion on accounts that may not be accurate. Look for what the witness says herself/himself, as the one on the blog says, noone inside that “tent” was forced to do anything against their will.
There’s a reason it’s called “hype”.
I’m happy this tragedy can bring to light the needs of many, so that it never happens again.
I have to get back to my commitments, clients and busy schedule, but let’s continue the dialogue as to what more we can do to expedite that process, of awareness.
Mahalo and blessings to all especially Anitra, David and everyone commenting here.